Patch 1.4. Please Nerf the HRE (Austria)

[frolix42]

I think Austria, specifically it's ability to form the HRE, should get some adjusting in the future.

This formed in the year 1670 in my Ironman Crimea game

I basically didn't interfere with AI Austria's development. This Behemouth has a 400 forcelimit and dominates every war.

In every Grand Campaign I've played the Holy Roman Empire is successfully formed. It's possible, especially if the player concentrates on disrupting Austria, to stop the HRE from forming, but right now it's far too easy for the Kaiserreich to be completed. I understand that the gradual progression from barely federated states into unstoppable Germanic monolith is cool, but it was not virtually inevitable like it is in EU4. It didn't happen in history and it happens far too often as is.

A useful and simple mechanic that could be added would be a way for HRE reforms to be rolled back. As it is now, it never happens in the game.

I hope that Imperial Authority is fixed in 1.4 and other AI nations have a chance to form the HRE, or to prevent it from forming.

 

[lordelenath]

I do have the feeling that the diplo-vassalizing change with 1.3 greatly enhanced Austrias power. Since the AI isn't very good at handling military expansion, most of the time Austria, Russia and Spain seem to dominate my campaigns. The first mostly due to PUs and diplo-vassalization, the others by colonization and beating up Asians. Don't really know how to change that though.

 

[Xara]

A useful and simple mechanic that could be added would be a way for HRE reforms to be rolled back.

Uh, there is.

It's also quite possible for the HRE to become perma-stuck at 100 IA in the hands of a minor like Saxony as emp.

 

[frolix42]

Uh, there is.

A way for one of the reforms enacted by the Emperor to be undone? How does it happen?
If there is, I've never seen it. Are you talking about the Dissolve the HRE decision?

It's also quite possible for the HRE to become perma-stuck at 100 IA in the hands of a minor like Saxony as emp.

This is part of the problem. If a minor elector can't enact a reform to make the HRE hereditary, it will eventually revert back to Austria (or Bohemia).

 

[anomalacaris]

I do have the feeling that the diplo-vassalizing change with 1.3 greatly enhanced Austrias power. Since the AI isn't very good at handling military expansion, most of the time Austria, Russia and Spain seem to dominate my campaigns. The first mostly due to PUs and diplo-vassalization, the others by colonization and beating up Asians. Don't really know how to change that though.

I think it is the better ai, especially the part where small armies hook up into a real stack many player hate, that enhanced austria. That and ai capability in getting many alliances. In my current game austria only expand a couple provinces except inherited lowlands, and can deal with danish and french agression with ease.

 

[Pornek]

A way for one of the reforms enacted by the Emperor to be undone? How does it happen?
If there is, I've never seen it. Are you talking about the Dissolve the HRE decision?

For the cost of 100% WS you can demand to revert reform.

 

[HankHank]

For the cost of 100% WS you can demand to revert reform.

You can't do that after the HrE forms though, correct? This just happened in my Netherlands game, and I'm thinking that Europe just got a heck of a lot more peaceful and boring. I'm probably gonna cheat and force it to break up to make the game a bit more exciting.

 

[unmerged(82265)]

I haven't seen that happen yet in any of my games. I guess I tend to punch Austria in the face a lot. I also kick Spain in the gonads once in awhile. Most games end up with released Aragon and released Styria. I guess I just know they would grow and shut them down starting at day 1. Of course, I haven't played any OPMS yet either. That's probably what happens when you don't punch and kick.

 

[schaedel]

That's some nice HRE over there. Honestly, I don't see a Problem with it, as, obviously, this game has a vast array of different possibilities and outcomes, which I personally absolutely LOVE.
I have to admit, that I just yesterday started a Palatinate game, the first time for me in EU4 to meddle with the HRE. But in ALL my other games (Scotland/GB, Hatayama/Japan, Oman and so on) i never interfered in Central Europe and I NEVER saw the HRE formed...at least no big HRE, I once saw it formed without Austria (quite historic, isn't it?) and veryvery often Austria cannot even hold its throne, I see different emperors all the time, but no absurd ones like Ethiopia, more in the line of Bavaria, Savoy, Saxony, sometimes even France, which is also a quite historic possibility.

That a fully formed HRE like in the OP truly is dominating and maybe even slightly "overpowered" in fact is (and should be) WAD...so well done Paradox I'd say

 

[Apocaliptica]

I actually managed to finish a few games, even without a european country and i've never seen a HRE.

 

[unmerged(475475)]

In many hundreds of hours of gameplay I have never seen a HRE that I didn't form myself.

 

[unmerged(635163)]

The way HRE mechanics work greatly favors the AI and Austria. Only the AI can optimize diplomat slots to pass reforms, where as a player you have to painfully and regularily check every icon to break down who need to be buttered up: AI efficiency is key to forming the HRE (and of course it's easier as austria because you have the ideas for it).

 

[frolix42]

For the cost of 100% WS you can demand to revert reform.

100% WS is pretty hard to achieve, especially against Austria. It's probably why I've never seen it.
To spend an entire war only to roll back one reform? I think the reforms should go back to zero after winning a complete victory over the HRE.

I actually managed to finish a few games, even without a European country and i've never seen a HRE.

4 out of 4 games (France, Spain, Crimea and Ottomans) I've played into the 1700s the HRE has risen. Maybe we are both outliers, maybe not.

 

[unmerged(815621)]

100% WS is pretty hard to achieve, especially against Austria. It's probably why I've never seen it.
To spend an entire war only to roll back one reform? I think the reforms should go back to zero after winning a complete victory over the HRE.

4 out of 4 games (France, Spain, Crimea and Ottomans) I've played into the 1700s the HRE has risen. Maybe we are both outliers, maybe not.

As the player, 100% WS against a mostly landlocked enemy it very easy to achieve. The AI will generally not try to get this far, which is why when Austria is in control, there are no rollback unless the player does it.

I doubt this will ever change as paradox have explicitly said they want tallow the AI some freedom to blob consistantly as a counter weight to the player inevitably blobbing. Plus, as Austria is a lucky nation as AI, they get a bunch of BS that helps them (which I am waiting for the day lucky nations gets removed from ironman).

 

[frolix42]

99% warscore is easy. Doesn't 100% warscore require you capture every province, plus all provinces of allies if it's a coalition war? I would argue that it's rather hard unless you are France early on.

Perhaps the most devastating buff Austria has is it's missions. In this case it was the Mission to PU Hungary, which it got very early on.

 

[Beagá]

The Goddamn ugly color doesn´t help either.

Played Áustria once in 1.1 and won´t again, even through it´s harder now to form HRE.

On the other hand this blobbing doesn´t happen 100% time, and Áustria has a tendency of lagging behind in tech once it gets big, due to building so much stuff. In my Venice game they´ve inherited Burgundy in 1560 and diplo vassalized a lot of people, but no PUs so far. With France´s help I can beat them pretty consistently.

 

[Talq]

Yes, at the moment it tends to run a bit quick, unless Austria manages to screw up its relations or contrives to fall under a PU. Part of the problem is diplomatic relations are too important - watching Austria pass early reforms with 10 IA (from a new emperor being elected) is disturbing - and leads to things like internal wars banned by 1530.

Given its ahistorical nature, the formation of the HRE should not be something the AI does consistently, especially as you can't expect the human to be around to stop it (if I'm playing some SE Asian or Indian minor, I shouldn't need to power across the globe in 100 years to stop Austria forming the grey blob.

 

[RobRoy3]

I basically didn't interfere with AI Austria's development.

Well, that's the only problem I see with Austria/HRE. Historically, you had most of the nations in Europe dedicated to keeping Austria in check for most of this period. If the player can't be bothered to participate, player gets the consequences.

Please DON'T NERF THE HRE (AUSTRIA). It's often a terrific end-game boss. And it gives WC oriented players a vehicle with which they can theoretically achieve that goal.

 

[zodium]

99% warscore is easy. Doesn't 100% warscore require you capture every province, plus all provinces of allies if it's a coalition war? I would argue that it's rather hard unless you are France early on.

Perhaps the most devastating buff Austria has is it's missions. In this case it was the Mission to PU Hungary, which it got very early on.

Welcome to the war score system, where 100% war score means different things depending on what you want to ask for. Only Full Annexation actually requires total defeat, anything else can be acquired with as little as low 80s, even though it says 100.

 

[Bibor]

The HRE is highly random on how and whether it forms. I've never seen it as powerful as this screenshot depicts. Then again, I always do my best to crush it