Patch 1.19 beta Novgorod

[Nataliyas]

I know it is a beta patch, but in patch 1.19 Novgorod has double the amount of forts it has in patch 1.18. This is a gigantic problem for Muscovy. I legitimately believe if this makes it to the live patch Muscovy will be the weakest it has ever been. Not to mention, Novgorod tends to ally Ryazan and Odoyev who both provide another 10k troops together. This does even consider if Golden Horde or Kazan condotierri against Muscovy. Now, even after all this you conquer Novgorod with 0 manpower left you would think great! A ton of forts on my western border. Wrong you cannot afford to maintain all these extra forts so you delete them.

 

[Trin Tragula]

I suggest you play around with it a bit. Most countries start with a lot more forts now as the new zones of control system requires that and maintenance has also been halved
AI Muscovy is still doing fine in our observer games so we haven't seen anything to indicate a major power shift in this particular regard with the new system.

 

[Mortheim]

I know it is a beta patch, but in patch 1.19 Novgorod has double the amount of forts it has in patch 1.18. This is a gigantic problem for Muscovy. I legitimately believe if this makes it to the live patch Muscovy will be the weakest it has ever been. Not to mention, Novgorod tends to ally Ryazan and Odoyev who both provide another 10k troops together. This does even consider if Golden Horde or Kazan condotierri against Muscovy. Now, even after all this you conquer Novgorod with 0 manpower left you would think great! A ton of forts on my western border. Wrong you cannot afford to maintain all these extra forts so you delete them.

Ally Ryazan and Odoyev asap? Break alliance with Ryazan after first war and make Odoyev vassal.

But, i think, Russia will be crippled in MP.

 

[JKiller96]

Just played the new Great Horde and Novgorod died to Muscovy within minutes of me starting the game.
So no, I don't think Novgorod is an issue.

 

[thedarkendstar]

After you beat the Nov army just hire mercs to seige???

 

[Mortheim]

I suggest you play around with it a bit. Most countries start with a lot more forts now as the new zones of control system requires that and maintenance has also been halved
AI Muscovy is still doing fine in our observer games so we haven't seen anything to indicate a major power shift in this particular regard with the new system.

@Trin Tragula , the real problem comes to player. First, you don't have safe zone in Muscovy (couldn't find one in my war against Novgorod ANYWHERE). Second, Novgorod has save zone (near Pskov). Third, attrition at 5% practically all the time and a lot of forts.
Obviously, you can handle this versus AI. In MP game thou...Well, it will be hard. Hell, even in two of my three games Novgorod was able to run away from me to Kholm! So, they were able to tie me up to some degree.
Somehow, this patch made playing Muscovy harder

 

[KrupPato]

I see a similtar situation with Ottomans: all turks minor allied with Mamlucks, QQ or Timurids; Serbia start with fort and capital (if they ally with Byz you must siege 5 provincies with fort or capital). Nothing of impossible, but the first wars seems to request more time/manpower.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

After you beat the Nov army just hire mercs to seige???

1. Whatever you make the war goal, hold it from near declaring.
2. When sieging, split off one regiment and put "can attach". Let your subjects do the sieging. It's one of the few things they can do somewhat competently, while attached.

Grab enough Novgorod clay to block others killing them and so that next war you can annex them in one go.

 

[Mortheim]

I see a similtar situation with Ottomans: all turks minor allied with Mamlucks, QQ or Timurids; Serbia start with fort and capital (if they ally with Byz you must siege 5 provincies with fort or capital). Nothing of impossible, but the first wars seems to request more time/manpower.

In my first observer game Ottos lost first war to Hungary, Serbia and Byz and conquer Constantinople only in 1479.

Russia couldn't conquer Novgorod because of PLC. In 1487 it has lower income than Lithuania. And, well, AI took economic ideas and started blobing into steppe. By 1503 it had nearly same income as Poland (Poland had 2 more ducats) and was able to convert some lands due to luck bonus (but had only 75% of religious unity). Novgorod ate Livonian Order. And, in 1522, Muscovy attacked Novgorod. Do you think that fighting 72 income with 27 is bad idea? Totally wrong. Russia White Peaced PLC first and, then, after occupying whole Novgorod, and demanded to break alliance with PLC. No territorial gains, no manpower, 4 loans (1k total) - fiiinee... In 1531 Commonwealth appeared on the map. Ryazan allied Ottomans. Muscovy allied Ottomans *facepalm*. Commonwealth conquered half of Bohemia. It is 3rd richest country in the world after France and Ottomans. Aragon under Castile has more income than Muscovy. For some reason, Muscovy isn't great power while having 466 development. Persia is on the 8th place with 358 development XD

Spoiler

 

[grommile]

For some reason, Muscovy isn't great power while having 466 development.

That reason would be "Muscovy is missing an institution, so its development is discounted in line with its tech penalty".

 

[Mortheim]

That reason would be "Muscovy is missing an institution, so its development is discounted in line with its tech penalty".

Same goes for Persia. It has less development and doesn't have same institute.

 

[hashinshin]

Golden Horde has two problems:

It seems VERY overdemanding to form. Other country formations require 50-70% of their intended land. Golden Horde basically requires the empire formed already.

Their ideas are very meh. Barely an improvement over horde ideas, and a step back in many ways. (A weaker army due to no attrition reduction or land leader shock.)

 

[Ulec]

Golden Horde has two problems:

It seems VERY overdemanding to form. Other country formations require 50-70% of their intended land. Golden Horde basically requires the empire formed already.

Their ideas are very meh. Barely an improvement over horde ideas, and a step back in many ways. (A weaker army due to no attrition reduction or land leader shock.)

This. Give it some OP ideas, or just let it retain the leader shock instead of one of the useless ones introduced and lower its formation requirements instead.

 

[grommile]

It seems VERY overdemanding to form. Other country formations require 50-70% of their intended land. Golden Horde basically requires the empire formed already.

Country formations require wildly variable amounts of their intended land that display no particular correlation with how many permanent claims (or, in the case of forming Manchu, cores) you get.

 

[Gratak]

I suggest you play around with it a bit. Most countries start with a lot more forts now as the new zones of control system requires that and maintenance has also been halved
AI Muscovy is still doing fine in our observer games so we haven't seen anything to indicate a major power shift in this particular regard with the new system.

Why does the new system require more than one fort per area? And how does halving the maintenance help with regard to the pure siege-time per war being doubled thanks to that change? Why give the AI more forts than actually necessary. Let them build a few more units instead...

 

[Rabid]

Country formations require wildly variable amounts of their intended land that display no particular correlation with how many permanent claims (or, in the case of forming Manchu, cores) you get.

Persia also gives cores, due to the fact that they already exist on-map before formation, and only requires 7 specific provinces to form, though due to how they are laid out you need to take slightly more territory in 1.19 to link + core them all.

I suggest you play around with it a bit. Most countries start with a lot more forts now as the new zones of control system requires that and maintenance has also been halved
AI Muscovy is still doing fine in our observer games so we haven't seen anything to indicate a major power shift in this particular regard with the new system.

Hey Trin, since you posted in this thread and I posted about Persia; any chance of looking at the "Reforms of Monarchname" PER event and changing to a decision? It's a really important event as it gives empire rank and adds a lot of extra development to your provinces, but it has some non-obvious perequisites including +1 stab and being at peace. Wouldn't it be nicer if this was a decision that non-spoiled players could see and as a direct reward for reclaiming the majority of the Persian provinces?