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unmerged(11750)

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Nov 18, 2002
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So, after taking a somewhat neutral-to-negative stance in last night's Great Debate of the Playability of Patch 1.02, I must say I'm firmly in the camp of folks who believe this patch is a step in the right direction. And, in the hopes of further dispelling people's misconceptions about the changes to the economy, I present the following mini-AAR (of sorts) of the first five years of an ongoing game as France. Now, I'm sure you're thinking, "Oh, come on! Anyone can do well with France, even in this ridiculously difficult patch!" Well, several people who expressed disillusionment with 1.02 last night flatly stated that they found it impossible to turn a profit with France. Never being one to shy away from what others perceive as being impossible, I chose France, and set the game on Very Hard / Furious to boot.

First, budgetary matters. The slashing of army maintenance costs is a godsend, as you really don't want soldiers deserting because you had to cut their salaries just to stay in the black. By setting all taxes to 50% (can't go any higher with the Orleaniste party), and eliminating education and crime fighting expenses from the budget, I was able to muster a modest income of 30£ per day. Doesn't sound like much? Well, do the math and you'll find that it amounts to more than 10,000£ per year, which was all I thought I would need to get going. (Hell, that's enough for five level 1 railroads, or a couple middling factories, or two missions / trading posts ... you catch my drift. In retrospect, I wish I'd optimized things to make about 50£ a day, but hindsight is 20/20, as they say.

Now, I played a few abortive games as Prussia last night, so I was able to profit from the foresight that, for some strange reason, the AI simply does not want to make paper for quite some time. So my first factory choice was clear: paper. Well, OK ... that wasn't my first factory. First came the expansion of both the steel factory and lumber mill in Alsace-Lorraine. Then came the order for the Paper Mill in Provence. Now, in addition to Paper, I knew I would need Reg. Clothes and Furniture. I already had a RC factory, but no Fabric (next factory ordered), and no Furniture factory (no sooner envisioned then ordered). Any factory I couldn't support with raw materials was closed. This included the clipper factory, all but one of the wine / liquor factories (only had glass to support one - I left the most profitable one open), and the RC factory (to be reopened in a year's time).

By that time I'd exhausted most if not all of my supply of machine parts, but still had about 7,000£ to spend (and more coming each day). So, what to do next? RR didn't seem like a great investment, seeing as they only improve province infrastructure by 10% in these latter days. They'd have to wait until I had more money to burn. On the other hand, there's Russia, happily colonizing the hell out of the West African coast. Surely, they couldn't be left unchallenged for long, and the Brits were too busy putting down rebellions in India and Ireland (apparently due to their wildly unpopular war against Panjab) to give a farthing about Africa. So, I colonized. I targetted the Cameroon and Namibia area, right in the armpit of Africa, as that area has a fair amount of Timber, which France was short on at the time, and is one of the Big Three Resources Every Nation Needs.

As for the other two, Iron and Coal, France was a bit short on those two. Fortunately, Aldjazair has some nice Iron deposits, and I already owned three of their provinces, and there was already an army on the border ... it was too tempting, really. Despite initially slow progress, the tiny nation was eventually overrun and annexed in about a year. Thus ended France's iron shortage, that's one less good on the import lists. As for coal, Morocco has some coal ...

But I digress. By this time, all the factories ordered at the beginning of the year had been completed. Producing only .2 fabric per day with a fully staffed factory is disappointing, to say the least. Upgrading the RR in that province helped, but only a little. Nevertheless, .24 fabric was enough to supply the RC factory, provided it was staffed with only 2 POPs and the auto-assign feature was turned off (no real overwhelming need for it now that there are messages for factory completion). By this point I was making small amounts of paper, RC, and furniture, and growing my own tobacco. The production of none of these goods was enough to make me rich, but that's not why they were built - they were built to allow me to promote craftsmen, which I began doing, first in Alsace-Lorraine, in order to fully staff that expanded steel factory. As a result, a daily production of 1.13 steel, with a usage of .2 (small arms factory). The resultant surplus proved to be more than enough to fund construction projects in the near future. The lumber surplus, though, left much to be desired, so the mill in A-L was expanded again.
Meanwhile, back in Africa, I continued building claim buildings in timber provinces (and generally tried to block out the insatiable Russians wherever I could). Namibia would soon be ready to claim. But France's reliance on imported coal was still annoying me. (I am annoyed easily.) Time to declare war on Morocco. No sooner dreamed than done, and in little more than a month, Morocco caves, handing over Marrakesh, Tafilelt, Oujda, and El Rarbi to France. (That Pierpont fellow is pretty effective, as far as Old School Bigots go.) They didn't need that coal, anyway. And that fruit will taste better in my wine than in any bilge Morocco could've produced.

For the next year or so I continue to promote POPs to fully staff factories and build claim buildings in Africa as money and resource stocks allow. By 1839, one year after the Morocco war, my gross income was 220£, double what it was at the start of the game, but my net income remained at about 30£, due to my investing the rest of the gain in education. Which paid off in September of that year with the development of Stock Exchange, further increasing tax revenue. Shortly thereafter, my trade post in Saburo was completed, allowing me to claim Namibia, netting me 50 Prestige.

In 1840 the Jacquard Power Loom was invented, increasing my fabric output and allowing me to put another POP in the RC factory. I continued to spend nearly all my money on colonizing: industrialization can be done later, but once you get shut out of Africa, your colonizing days are over. In addition to Cameroon, I built some claims in the Gold Coast, in which I started the game with two buildings. Couldn't let the UK block me out of there - they've got enough land already.

The Orleaniste won the 1840 election and remained in power, and Annam chose to be rather belligerent and anti-Christian. Perhaps France will elect to punish her in the future, or perhaps a colonial war against Russia is in order. After all, they have illictly set up claim buildings in Cameroon, which is legally mine. So is the Congo - another memo the tsar didn't get.

Anyhoo, let's just take a step back an analyze what I did in but five years:

- I more than doubled my gross income.
- I colonized and claimed Namibia.
- I fought and won two colonial wars against primitive nations, annexing one and taking valuable resources from the other.
- I built enough factories to provide with enough building materials and other goods to ensure that industrialization can continue regardless of the presence / absence of those goods and materials on the WM.
- I optimally staffed said factories to produce as much of those necessary goods as possible without outpacing the production of the intermediate goods they are dependent upon.
- Finally, and most importantly, I had quite a lot of fun, and found myself having to make some tough decisions. Colonize, or Industrialize? was the biggest one. I chose to colonize, and while my industrial rating suffered for it (7th place by Jan. 1841), my Prestige took a boost (5th place), and I cut down my importing expenses nicely.

And just for the hell of it, here's what I didn't do:

- I didn't move my entire workforce into factories. (i.e., didn't fully industrialize)
- I didn't lay RR on every province. (In fact, I only laid track in two provinces.)
- I didn't get into a war with a European nation. (I'm simply not strong enough yet.)
- I didn't build any military units. (No need. But I did increase mobilization by 15 divisions.)
- I didn't sit around and wait for money to accrue. While waiting I busied myself with the aforementioned wars, picking out good colony spots, and promoting / assigning POPs.
- I didn't take any loans. Not one. Running up a debt simply didn't make sense, as the gains from doing so are far, far less than they used to be.
- I didn't run the nation with a budgetary deficit. I made a profit every single day for 1,825 consecutive days.
- I didn't levy tariffs. In retrospect, I wish I had. The AI certainly seems to do just that. Tariffs are quite lucrative in 1.02 - had I levied full tariffs I could've had another 200£ per day. *Mental note filed*
- I didn't go bankrupt, obviously.
- I didn't run the game at any speed beyond Below Normal. In fact, I had to pause to think several times. Far too much to do to speed things up, really.

So the following myths have been shattered:

- Victoria 1.02 is unplayable - Clearly not the case. If it were, I sure as hell wouldn't be in 5th place overall after five years.
- The early years of the game are boring - Nope. The early years of the game are what you make of them. Sure, you won't be able to disembowel Austria en route to dominating the Continent (at least, not for a few decades), but there's more to the game then naked aggression and warmongering. Mind you, that might not be for everyone - those who like the game for its military aspects will surely be disappointed by this patch. But I would contend that they might enjoy HoI more than Victoria.
- There is no way to promote craftsmen for the first 25 years of the game - I did it in the second year of the game. Mind you, doing so takes finesse and an assumption that the WM simply will not provide enough paper, clothes, or furniture to do the job.
- All countries (even France) will be forced to spiral into debt and bankruptcy - Obviously not. I doubled my gross income in five years, never took a loan nor ran a deficit, got education spending up to fifty percent, built a dozen or so claim buildings, claimed a colony, and fought two wars against primitives. Had I levied tariffs, I could have done much, much more. Seems like there's plenty of money to be had, though clearly not the ridiculous amounts of money as were had by all in 1.01.

Now I will admit that the following is true: Victoria just got a whole lot harder. The increase in difficulty is an order of magnitude. I have serious doubts as to my ability to take any nation other than the UK to the top of the GP standings while playing at Very Hard. The same cannot be said for any previous Paradox game - the VP standings in EU2 are such a joke that players must come up with goals to accomplish by game's end, just to gauge victory. And don't get me started on HoI. The seemingly impossible has happened: a Paradox game has become challenging. I fully expect hell to freeze over and the Blackhawks to win the Stanley Cup very, very soon. :D

But the best part is, it's not challenging because the AI is given all sorts of nasty cheats. It's challenging because the player is forced to make tough decisions about how to spend his money. He is, in short, forced to think, as opposed to simply following some optimized strategy that he read in a Peter Ebbesen AAR. (No offense, Peter ... I couldn't think of a more prolific source of gamey strategy. :D)

Mind you, there are still some iniquities to be ironed out, such as the unwillingness of highly demanded, underproduced resources and goods to raise in price the way the readme claims they will. And there is the uber-ness of the colonial AI, which snatches up everything in less than ten years. You pretty much have to decide right up front whether or not you want to colonize, unless you're the UK, in which case you pretty much have to.

Questions, comments, requests for the savegame or screenies of the situation in 1841 (just in case you think this is all a product of my diseased imagination) are all most welcome.
 

BlkbrryTheGreat

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Nice job dispelling the myth that majors can't cut it in 1.02! Only problem I have with the patch (at this point) is that if you start with no craftsmen (ie a minor like Persia) its impossible to industrialize if clothing furniture and paper do not become available on the WM.
 

unmerged(11750)

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Yep, that's certainly the case. Even one craftsman would be enough to get going, as you can usually import Timber, Cotton, and Tobacco easily enough. You'd just have to build all the necessary factories in the same province, move that craftsman from one factory to the next, and build up your supply until you get the ball rolling. Slowly but surely, you could do it without the WM, once you had a craftsman. I suppose you could start a new game, save immediately, and edit the savegame to give Persia (or whatever minor nation you wished to play) one craftsman in the most populous province.
 

Montague68

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BlkbrryTheGreat said:
Nice job dispelling the myth that majors can't cut it in 1.02! Only problem I have with the patch (at this point) is that if you start with no craftsmen (ie a minor like Persia) its impossible to industrialize if clothing furniture and paper do not become available on the WM.

Absolutely agree. I don't have a problem with industrialization being difficult, but the problem IMHO is that it seems the impediment is arbitrary. "Sorry, there are no clothes, you can't change your farmers to clerks" or "Sorry, no one is selling machine parts, you can't build factories." As others have stated, this leaves nothing but waiting until these goods become available, or conquering provinces with those factories (good luck).

A good strategy game is about choices, and if you're playing as a minor you have no choice to start your industrialization program but when the computer tells you, OK you can start now - actually it doesn't, you just have to wait and check your stockpiles repeatedly, but i digress :p

Playing as Argentina last night, I was readily able to balance the budget, make a decent profit of 5 per day with max Education. When I got Mech Production and the 5 machine parts I thought great, I can now build my first factory. Uh, no. Couldn't convert pops because paper and clothes were nowhere to be found. So I had very little choice but to sit there and wait for someone to decide to sell these things. My manpower was well in negative digits so a "splendid little war" was out.

I don't argue that industrialization should be difficult, but the way it's being slowed down is arbitrary. I am reminded of bad roleplaying games where the gamemaster will tell you "You can't do that."

"Why not?"

"Because you can't"

"Well then can I..."

"No"

That's not more of a challenge, that's poor game design. Make these products hideously expensive, or make us have to negotiate trade deals or foreign aid deals with countries that have them, or make some other (more expensive) way to convert pops, but at least give us a choice, rather than jacking the game up to max speed and waiting for the green light from the computer.
 

Mozart41st

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Well no one ever doubted that Prussia or France would be ultimately playable. But what about the little guys? That's what I'm worried about. :)
 

unmerged(1104)

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Nicely done Crimson King. I am playing my first GC v1.02 with France (as I played her a lot v1.01 and could best see the changes.) Found pretty much the same results. I have enjoyed it more than v1.01.


Note to new French players and all this quick colonial building:

Build the three provs in Gabon right away if you want it. If UK gets one, it's okay as you can trade Dakar for it.

In Ivory Coast you have two diff colonial buildings. Build the other two ASAP, once the colony is full, with AI colonial buildings you can claim. Only if you have one of each colonial type building.
 

unmerged(11750)

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Well, as I (sort of) alluded to, the solution to making nations devoid of craftsmen playable might be for Paradox to give each of those nations one craftsman at the start of the GC in the next patch.

But, to be perfectly honest, if the game's biggest shortcoming is that nations such as Argentina and Persia are impossible to industrialize before 1860, I'd say the game is in good shape. These nations fell far behind Europe in the Industrial Revolution for very specific reasons, not the least of which was the fact that they simply didn't have access to the technology, resources, and / or capital required to pull it off.

And the impediments are not arbitrary: they are abstractions of real obstacles faced by nations other than the United Kingdom during the period. Britain held several technologies key to large-scale manufacturing, and jealously guarded them for years. This is abstracted by the UK being the only nation able to manufacture machine parts at the start of the GC. Many nations didn't possess the right sociological factors (large urban populations, etc.) for industrialization. This is abstracted by some nations having no craftsmen. Finally, every nation had to devote a certain amount of capital to encourage industrialization, and that's abstracted by the need for paper, furniture, tobacco, clothing, steel, lumber, cement, and of course, cold hard cash.

Yes, the notion of handing a farmer 500£, a pack of cigarettes, a chair, a pair of pants, and a notebook to instantly educate him into a factory worker is ludicrous when thought about in real-world terms. But as I said, it's an abstraction of prerequisites that did exist, designed to slow down the pace of industrialization to something that would have been feasible in the time period.

So instead of thinking in terms like "Sorry, there are no clothes available, you can't turn that farmer into a craftsman," think in terms like "Sorry, this state is not sufficiently urbanized to support all its factories. You need to invest some capital to provide some incentive for the people who live in its rural areas to move to a city."

Mozart41st: Several people were rather vociferously saying last night that every nation save the UK was unplayable. France was singled out by several posters. Thus, the reason I chose them. Obviously, repeating my accomplishments as Two Sicilies would be rather difficult. :)

Habsburg said:
Build the three provs in Gabon right away if you want it. If UK gets one, it's okay as you can trade Dakar for it.

In Ivory Coast you have two diff colonial buildings. Build the other two ASAP, once the colony is full, with AI colonial buildings you can claim. Only if you have one of each colonial type building.

Yep, this is pretty much what I did, though I've yet to trade away Dakar. (Why the hell did I write Namibia instead of Gabon? What was I smoking?) Gabon and Cameroon are the place to go for African Timber, and with Bahia (Tropical Wood) right next door, you can't go wrong.
 
Last edited:

Marirosa

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BlkbrryTheGreat said:
Nice job dispelling the myth that majors can't cut it in 1.02! Only problem I have with the patch (at this point) is that if you start with no craftsmen (ie a minor like Persia) its impossible to industrialize if clothing furniture and paper do not become available on the WM.

Playing the 1.01 with China (that have no workers at start) that was my first worry, even more than get the techs to build factories.

So i dowed Anam just to anex Cambodia. Strangely enough, Cambodia start with one craftment, and this very little POP was the foundational stone of the chinese industry.

Now in 1.02 it seems like 8% of chinesse POBs are workers... unnemployed workers i must add, as well as 70% of chinesse farmers. 75% of chinesse population are sitting in the streets doing nothing in this new patch. Was really stupid to have a lot of clerks in a country with no industries and no tech/machine parts (stupid is not the word, but exploitive by the clever player) but now i don't know how the farmers can survive year after year without working. From what i read, is like they don't need to eat at all in 1.02
 

unmerged(11750)

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Yes, the change list clearly states that farmers no longer require food. It makes some sense in that an employed farmer could satisfy his needs with part of his own production, but the notion of farmers sitting on their asses, not receiving food from anywhere and not starving to death is pretty screwy. :rofl:

Still, I'll take little stuff like that over 1.01's "wads of money from heaven" any day.
 

solops

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I am having no problems with 1.02 other than a bug (?) that sticks R&D. I am at a bit of a loss as to what all the compaining is about....so far.
 

Johnny Canuck

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If you have unemployed farmers in China, it is likely the case that you need to upgrade the level of the RGOs in provinces with these unemployed farmers.
 

Mozart41st

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Crimson King said:
But, to be perfectly honest, if the game's biggest shortcoming is that nations such as Argentina and Persia are impossible to industrialize before 1860, I'd say the game is in good shape. These nations fell far behind Europe in the Industrial Revolution for very specific reasons, not the least of which was the fact that they simply didn't have access to the technology, resources, and / or capital required to pull it off.

I strongly disagree. There are many of us who greatly enjoy building a small nation up into a great power. 1.02 has taken the philosophy of hardcoding all but a small number of nations for failure. The removal of the ability for uncivilized nations to become civilized is one of the more egregrious examples of this philosophy. This takes away much of the variety and charm from the game.
 

Johnny Canuck

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Mozart41st said:
I strongly disagree. There are many of us who greatly enjoy building a small nation up into a great power. 1.02 has taken the philosophy of hardcoding all but a small number of nations for failure.

IMHO, 1.02 does not hardcode minors to fail. It is not hard at all to run a budgetary profit playing minors as diverse as the Netherlands and Chile, for example.
 

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Johnny Canuck said:
If you have unemployed farmers in China, it is likely the case that you need to upgrade the level of the RGOs in provinces with these unemployed farmers.

:rofl:

Except for the part where uncivilized nations can't do that anymore. :D :D

Solution: Convert them to soldiers and have a good ole' time.
 

Mozart41st

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Johnny Canuck said:
IMHO, 1.02 does not hardcode minors to fail. It is not hard at all to run a budgetary profit playing minors as diverse as the Netherlands and Chile, for example.

I hope this isn't one of the budgetary profits where military and education are slashed to minimum levels and taxes and tariffs are raised to near-maximums. :p

Can you tell us how uncivillized nations (outside of Japan or Persia) become civilized now? Many of us were curious. :)
 

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Crimson King said:
Yes, the change list clearly states that farmers no longer require food. It makes some sense in that an employed farmer could satisfy his needs with part of his own production, but the notion of farmers sitting on their asses, not receiving food from anywhere and not starving to death is pretty screwy. :rofl:

Still, I'll take little stuff like that over 1.01's "wads of money from heaven" any day.

Think of it like subsistance peasant farmers,

The farmers working in the RGO's are actually contributing to your economy, but peasant farmers tend only to grow what they need to eat - and so don't show up at all in economic statistics.

I would assume that RGO's are more like larger farms, if they were subsistance peasant farms then they should produce no sellable surplus and the aristocrat bonus should not apply.
 

unmerged(21992)

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Johnny Canuck said:
IMHO, 1.02 does not hardcode minors to fail. It is not hard at all to run a budgetary profit playing minors as diverse as the Netherlands and Chile, for example.
I'm fairly sure he was referring to the idea discussed above: That it's nearly impossible to get the goods required to convert a pop into a craftsman unless you build the factories yourself; and that therefore a minor without a craftsman would have to wait a very long time before running even one factory.
 

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Duuk said:
:rofl:

Except for the part where uncivilized nations can't do that anymore. :D :D

Solution: Convert them to soldiers and have a good ole' time.

That was my response. Now the english have "little problems" with some 12 millions of irregular chinesse troops all around India. Hopefully China starts with 278 or so leadership points to command all those irregulars (oh, and like 1400 base manpower before the mass recruitements) .

:rofl:

By he way. Another exploit in 1.02 (in 1.01 i think it was not possible) with China:

1 January of 1836. A chinesse diplomat cross the frontier and contact a russian official. More than half of Turkestan (5 claims) would be russian if they share with us all the basic european combat tactics. The russians are very pleased. They even give us 900 pounds with the 5 techs (75% posibilities at VH).

2 January of 1836. China Claims Turkestan and all but one claim becomes part of chinese home provinces.

Net effect: 4 chinese claims were russians for one day; China traded 900 pounds and 5 military techs for one claim.

... I love this game :rofl:
 

Mozart41st

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Mozart41st said:
I hope this isn't one of the budgetary profits where military and education are slashed to minimum levels and taxes and tariffs are raised to near-maximums. :p

Can you tell us how uncivillized nations (outside of Japan or Persia) become civilized now? Many of us were curious. :)

I am genuinely interested in a reply to this, if you would be so kind, Mr. Canuck.