Partisans and Rebels- Please no more whack-a-mole

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daniloy

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One of the weakest features of the HOI series was the representation of Partisans.

1. Partisans didnt operate in Division or Brigade Strength with the expection of Jugoslawia
2.They were a very small annoyance and were easily beaten
3.Their hideouts could be found fast and be destroyed

Rebels themselves are odd.

1.Rebels are hostile to all nations even if the nations could be their ally.
2.Rebels spawning in colonial regions or ethnic regions under another nation makes sense.
But they shouldnt appear in the USA,France or Germany. High Dissent shouldnt let to some
vague spawning of rebels.


I hope the HOI developers took measures to change that.
 

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Who had to play whack-a-mole with partisans after TFH came out?

Set up a partisan suppression theater, put your suppression units at key locations, give it a small react force, and let the AI handle it. And that assumes partisans even rise up. With proper suppression, the URs get discovered and killed, as you indicate in #3.

As for rebels spawning in France, I think you have forgotten that the French Resistance liberated Brittany and no less a person than Eisenhower indicated that their participation in the liberation of France as a whole was on the magnitude of 15 divisions.. So it's Germany's fault if they won't use the proper assets to stop the French Resistance.

And why are you getting rebels in Germany or the USA? Unless you've occupied them, in which case why aren't you suppressing them?
 

daniloy

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Who had to play whack-a-mole with partisans after TFH came out?

Set up a partisan suppression theater, put your suppression units at key locations, give it a small react force, and let the AI handle it. And that assumes partisans even rise up. With proper suppression, the URs get discovered and killed, as you indicate in #3.

As for rebels spawning in France, I think you have forgotten that the French Resistance liberated Brittany and no less a person than Eisenhower indicated that their participation in the liberation of France as a whole was on the magnitude of 15 divisions.. So it's Germany's fault if they won't use the proper assets to stop the French Resistance.

And why are you getting rebels in Germany or the USA? Unless you've occupied them, in which case why aren't you suppressing them?

Nevermind rebels post my information about them spawning was outdates. I was reffering to rebels appearing in the country that it owns. Yeah i forget about that.

The problems is that partisans in other countries didnt operate like that but only under special occasions. The french resistance didnt suddenly gather their all their
men and material and attack prior to D-Day instead they used irregular warfare. And your tactic is exactly the problem. Instead of being a minor drain of supplies and soldiers
its just attack the appearing partisan division and rinse-and repeat. While they operated in far smaller groups to damage Infrastructure,Supplies and other targets.

Source:Slepyan, Kenneth. Stalin's guerrillas : Soviet partisans in World War II. University Press of Kansas, 2006
 

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The problems is that partisans in other countries didnt operate like that but only under special occasions. The french resistance didnt suddenly gather their all their
men and material and attack prior to D-Day instead they used irregular warfare. And your tactic is exactly the problem. Instead of being a minor drain of supplies and soldiers
its just attack the appearing partisan division and rinse-and repeat. While they operated in far smaller groups to damage Infrastructure,Supplies and other targets.

To me HOI3 simulates this by giving you less resources/manpower from conquered areas. I imagine that much of the lost manpower/industry/resources are just redirected to making forces for fighting small groups of partisans, and so it isn't available for building divisions.
 

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Nevermind rebels post my information about them spawning was outdates. I was reffering to rebels appearing in the country that it owns. Yeah i forget about that.

The problems is that partisans in other countries didnt operate like that but only under special occasions. The french resistance didnt suddenly gather their all their
men and material and attack prior to D-Day instead they used irregular warfare. And your tactic is exactly the problem. Instead of being a minor drain of supplies and soldiers
its just attack the appearing partisan division and rinse-and repeat. While they operated in far smaller groups to damage Infrastructure,Supplies and other targets.

Source:Slepyan, Kenneth. Stalin's guerrillas : Soviet partisans in World War II. University Press of Kansas, 2006

You know that partisan activity in HOI3 also reduces supply throughput, right? And that URs can give intelligence back to their owner by lifting the FOW?

I can literally get up to the hour intelligence on German movements in France and Poland by supporting underground resistances. And the reason most players use collaboration government in the game is because the partisan penalty to supply throughput makes Barbarossa a nightmare if you use any other setting. Who cares how many resources you pull from occupied portions of the Soviet Union if the German army is out of supply 100 km from Moscow, Leningrad, and Odessa?

I'm not saying the system is perfect, but the implementation in HOI3 is meaningful and historical.
 

aasand

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Who had to play whack-a-mole with partisans after TFH came out?

Set up a partisan suppression theater, put your suppression units at key locations, give it a small react force, and let the AI handle it. And that assumes partisans even rise up. With proper suppression, the URs get discovered and killed, as you indicate in #3.

As for rebels spawning in France, I think you have forgotten that the French Resistance liberated Brittany and no less a person than Eisenhower indicated that their participation in the liberation of France as a whole was on the magnitude of 15 divisions.. So it's Germany's fault if they won't use the proper assets to stop the French Resistance.

Partisan popping up here and there doesn't give much to gameplay and overall doesn't make much sense. Like them spawning in France when GER have beaten USSR and no allied invasion. That's just suicide. That aside, the biggest problem is that the AI, in HOI3 at least, just can't handle it. I don't know how many times i've seen AI GER send half their front back to Poland to chase a single spawned partisan.
 

daemonofdecay

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You know that partisan activity in HOI3 also reduces supply throughput, right? And that URs can give intelligence back to their owner by lifting the FOW?

I can literally get up to the hour intelligence on German movements in France and Poland by supporting underground resistances. And the reason most players use collaboration government in the game is because the partisan penalty to supply throughput makes Barbarossa a nightmare if you use any other setting. Who cares how many resources you pull from occupied portions of the Soviet Union if the German army is out of supply 100 km from Moscow, Leningrad, and Odessa?

I'm not saying the system is perfect, but the implementation in HOI3 is meaningful and historical.

I wonder if restricting certain governments from using certain occupation laws would add something to gameplay and reflect the historic differences. Limiting Fascist and National socialist governments from using collaborative governments (at least in certain areas) while democracies can't use the exploitive ones might reflect the history and politics better better and offer a difference between how different nations handled suppressing dissent.

Personally, I always used collaborative no matter where it was or what nation I played ask for the reasons you spelled out above. I think that if such a choice is almost mandatory then something needs to be changed so it isn't so one sided.
 

daemonofdecay

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Partisan popping up here and there doesn't give much to gameplay and overall doesn't make much sense. Like them spawning in France when GER have beaten USSR and no allied invasion. That's just suicide. That aside, the biggest problem is that the AI, in HOI3 at least, just can't handle it. I don't know how many times i've seen AI GER send half their front back to Poland to chase a single spawned partisan.

Yeah that sounds like an AI issue really. I think having the AI know how to handle partisans and making it so partisan uprisings were better times would make more sense.

Maybe after an invasion the partisans start building up supplies and manpower based upon how well/poor the occupier is keeping their activity suppressed. Eventually, if the stockpile builds up or allied forces get close enough, the partisans then revolt. So, for instance, you could model the French rising up after D-Day and the Poles rising up in Warsaw when the Red Army got close, but you could also model the Yugoslavian example where they were so successful in their campaign against the Axis that they were able to raise divisions on their own without a nearby allied army.

His would also make suppression of rebels and support for rebels more involved, because if you don't keep them suppressed then the enemy might obtain free divisions with an invasion.
 

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Who had to play whack-a-mole with partisans after TFH came out?

Yes, TFH handled it better - by replacing single whack-a-mole with herds of moles. This was marginally better, but still far from ideal.

Set up a partisan suppression theater, put your suppression units at key locations, give it a small react force, and let the AI handle it.


Which part of "using the AI because the game has too much micro in it is lame" don't you understand?

As for rebels spawning in France, I think you have forgotten that the French Resistance liberated Brittany and no less a person than Eisenhower indicated that their participation in the liberation of France as a whole was on the magnitude of 15 divisions.. So it's Germany's fault if they won't use the proper assets to stop the French Resistance.

I think most of us would like to see meaningful uprisings similar to those that actually occurred. This may shock you, but hundreds of thousands of poorly-armed militia taking to the battlefield every six-twelve months in brief, utterly futile mass uprisings is not very historical.

We've been over this before, but partisan warfare really needs a major revamp - you need to be able to do something other than simply store up men and weapons for uprisings when playing as a occupied country. Giving the player options related to sabotage and assasination, and competition in the form of other partisan movements (e.g., France had both the FFI and Communists as well as the Vichy, Poland had the London Poles and the Lublin Poles, Yugoslavia had the Cetniks and the Titoists as well as puppet governments), and make uprisings an all-or-nothing affair that are difficult to pull off more than once or twice during the war.
 

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So, the partisan impact on supply is not meaningful (from occupation laws)? Or are you telling me that lifting the FOW with URs is not a non-combat activity for URs to perform? If RADAR wasn't so completely overpowering, you'd never want to spawn your partisans until Overlord just to keep getting intel on Axis movements.

Just because the AI fruitlessly spawns partisan uprisings that humans can crush easily doesn't mean the mechanic is lame in and of itself. Furthermore, just because AI controlled countries will detach units from the front and pursue uprisings doesn't mean the existing mechanic is lame.

There is a ton of stuff URs and partisans could do better, but what shocks me is that you seem to think that I want mass uprisings every six months when they would have no effect. What I would want is a system where the AI actually uses them effectively, and where uprisings that are crushed reduce the possibility of setting up new URs and clear the partisan impact on supply for a set period of time (the partisans were rounded up and dealt with).

Now, if you said to me, "But URs should also generate covert ops points," then I'm all in favor of that suggestion. Or if you want to incorporate the 5345 suggestions in the other thread where we talked about all the interesting things you could hypothetically do as a GiE, then yes, I would also agree.

But complaining about whack-a-mole in TFH implies it's like Communist revolts in Vic2 or something similar. It's simply not on the same scale; Hell, suppression even kills nationalism in the latest iteration of TFH, so you could hypothetically reduce ALL revolt risk and partisan impact in the occupied Soviet Union or annexed China to absolute zero with enough manpower in the right divisions. That would be wasteful of both manpower and IC; but since there are large portions of the planet with no impact on resource generation, manpower, leadership, or IC, who cares about the empty provinces? If you can't spare an AI partisan suppression theater with 2 CAV divisions to mop up the empty provinces when the AI fires a mass uprising at the wrong time, then you have problems.
 

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In a familiar turn of phrase, "Arsenal of Democracy" improved on this. Partisans can pop up as divisional level units, but this happens very rarely. Instead, they have a major impact on industrial capacity, etc. in occupied territories.

It takes significant numbers of troops to suppress the dissent in large territories, making the release of puppets much more attractive.

- CG
 

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I wonder if restricting certain governments from using certain occupation laws would add something to gameplay and reflect the historic differences. Limiting Fascist and National socialist governments from using collaborative governments (at least in certain areas) while democracies can't use the exploitive ones might reflect the history and politics better better and offer a difference between how different nations handled suppressing dissent.
While it does seem a bit odd for Nazi Germany to establish a collaboration government in Poland and occupied parts of the Soviet Union, west of Berlin that's precisely what was done: Norway, the Netherlands, and Belgium all had collaboration governments best represented by the occupation policy of the same name in HoI3. The occupied parts of France that were under Vichy civilian administration were essentially the same.

I agree that it seems wrong that Germany can just set up a collaboration government in Poland for example, but the alternative of locking that out seems wrong too. I think the issue is that Germany, unsurprisingly, treated people differently based on ethnicity/race - to get it right the game would need to lock force Germany to use total exploitation on countries with ethnic majorities hated by Nazis. It could be kludged that Germany can't use collaboration government by default, with specific events setting the western occupied countries to collaboration - but I expect then players would puppet Poland as a way out.

Personally, I always used collaborative no matter where it was or what nation I played ask for the reasons you spelled out above. I think that if such a choice is almost mandatory then something needs to be changed so it isn't so one sided.
I agree. I used collaboration everywhere as well. Someone else pointed out that manpower is usually the hardest thing to get, whereas you can build new IC. Although sometimes resources are the cap on production so that would drive one toward harsher occupation polities. I think the only time I ever considered using total exploitation was as Nationalist China, since I had ludicrous manpower and not enough IC to use it, which would be where total exploitation is useful - but I'd not invested in military policy so I didn't, in that instance. Point being, if there's a go-to option, the options need rebalancing like you said.

I think collaboration was so useful because of the minimal partisans, as others have said, and then because it gave the most manpower, and then because it gave the most leadership. For most countries it's a no brainer to go for more LS and MP and for many to go for lower partisans, rather than the IC or resources. The manpower bit probably should be nerfed hard, since that's a big part of its appeal, and historically Germany at least got a lot more men from the East than the West; say at least 400,000 from east of Berlin, versus surely under 100,000 from the collaboration areas, probably around 50,000 total.
 

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I agree that it seems wrong that Germany can just set up a collaboration government in Poland for example, but the alternative of locking that out seems wrong too. I think the issue is that Germany, unsurprisingly, treated people differently based on ethnicity/race - to get it right the game would need to lock force Germany to use total exploitation on countries with ethnic majorities hated by Nazis. It could be kludged that Germany can't use collaboration government by default, with specific events setting the western occupied countries to collaboration - but I expect then players would puppet Poland as a way out.

Aside from the forbidden topic issue, I'd like to point out that I think of using collaboration governments in Poland and the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia as part of "playing the game better than my historical counterparts" just like building better divisions or using appropriate amounts of air power. Antagonizing the occupied people, especially when they may not have even liked their own government, is a wonderful example of being too dumb to live. And I do like being able to correct my historical counterparts' mistakes.

So I'm not sure how to square that with "collaboration or military government is 99.9999% of the time a better choice" problem because our historical counterparts were being particularly stupid and shortsighted. Hell, when your occupation policy in the Ukraine makes even Himmler think you've gone to far, maybe it's time to step back a bit and let Secret Master make some adjustments on the political screen, before your army goes OOS and dies on the vine because of the partisan malus to supply. :eek:
 

daemonofdecay

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Aside from the forbidden topic issue, I'd like to point out that I think of using collaboration governments in Poland and the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia as part of "playing the game better than my historical counterparts" just like building better divisions or using appropriate amounts of air power. Antagonizing the occupied people, especially when they may not have even liked their own government, is a wonderful example of being too dumb to live. And I do like being able to correct my historical counterparts' mistakes.

So I'm not sure how to square that with "collaboration or military government is 99.9999% of the time a better choice" problem because our historical counterparts were being particularly stupid and shortsighted. Hell, when your occupation policy in the Ukraine makes even Himmler think you've gone to far, maybe it's time to step back a bit and let Secret Master make some adjustments on the political screen, before your army goes OOS and dies on the vine because of the partisan malus to supply. :eek:

My issue with it isn't that you should only be forced to play historically in the political realm (although, having some extra negatives for being a "bad" nation not taking the "bad" occupation policy might be good to include, just to reflect the reality of such a hypothetical situation).

Honestly, I think the major issue is simply that collaborationist governments were almost always better. Indeed, I never saw a reason not to go collaborationist, no matter who I was playing. There are a few exceptions for specific circumstances, but I think the fact that most players consider one choice better the vast, vast majority of the time shows that the different options were not well balanced.

Besides altering what pros and cons you get with each approach, perhaps there could be nation- or ideology-specific flavor events to shape how a player will run their nation? If you're running the game as Nazi Germany and you're not running an exploitative government in the east, maybe you get pop-ups about 'Betraying Lebensraum' or 'Collaborating with Bolsheviks' that give you decreased unity or take away party support. As long as such events are not popping up every week it would allow a player to not have to stick to the historic methods without throwing away the reality of the politics.

Does anyone else have an idea about how to encourage players to follow the historic path without making it the only logical option?
 

Vainglory

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Aside from the forbidden topic issue,
This really does sail very close to the wind.

So I'm not sure how to square that with "collaboration or military government is 99.9999% of the time a better choice" problem because our historical counterparts were being particularly stupid and shortsighted.
True enough, but as I said, I think it's historically inaccurate that the collaboration governments, at least in the German experience, furnish more manpower than any other policy.

I'd like to point out that I think of using collaboration governments in Poland and the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia as part of "playing the game better than my historical counterparts" just like building better divisions or using appropriate amounts of air power. Antagonizing the occupied people, especially when they may not have even liked their own government, is a wonderful example of being too dumb to live. And I do like being able to correct my historical counterparts' mistakes. Hell, when your occupation policy in the Ukraine makes even Himmler think you've gone to far, maybe it's time to step back a bit and let Secret Master make some adjustments on the political screen, before your army goes OOS and dies on the vine because of the partisan malus to supply. :eek:
That too - and it's not as though Germany couldn't have had different occupation policies to some extent. After all, for all their propaganda about Slavs, the Slovaks and Croatians are Slavs, and the Germans set up puppet nation states for those two ethnic groups, as well as being allied with the Bulgarians. Not to mention that Lithuanians and Latvians are Balts, and Estonians Finnic, yet all three nations suffered under Nazi administration - and had no connection to Slavs.

It's also be nice to go on an anti-Bolshevik crusade and liberate all the oppressed peoples without having to be just as bad as the Reds.
 

jju_57

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People take about abstracting subs or planes. Partisans is one are that I think should be abstracted. It simply wasn't fun.

I liked that they impacted supplies but they had a regiment or brigade popup to represent 5 guys blowing up a rail line. So I want the impact and effects to be there but change the mechanics greatly. After all these militia units (in the game) couldn't fight and most died after 1-2 hours of combat. It was a pain to deal with even with AI control. All too often the AI sent a unit from far away or sent 10 units to fight the one rebel.

So abstract the heck out of it. Make us assign resources, units and other stuff to regions. But take the management off the map. For the rare and real uprisings you can place some militia brigades that hopefully can actually fight for more than an hour.
 

FOARP

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So, the partisan impact on supply is not meaningful (from occupation laws)?

Something the person controlling the partisans as a GiE cannot see and does not benefit from? Yes, very much so.

Or are you telling me that lifting the FOW with URs is not a non-combat activity for URs to perform?

Again, if you control the partisans as a GiE, this is pretty much meaningless because you don't really benefit from it and it doesn't allow you to do anything but place URs.

If RADAR wasn't so completely overpowering, you'd never want to spawn your partisans until Overlord just to keep getting intel on Axis movements.

Just because the AI fruitlessly spawns partisan uprisings that humans can crush easily doesn't mean the mechanic is lame in and of itself. Furthermore, just because AI controlled countries will detach units from the front and pursue uprisings doesn't mean the existing mechanic is lame.

"Just because something results in spammy game-play, doesn't mean it is lame"?

There is a ton of stuff URs and partisans could do better, but what shocks me is that you seem to think that I want mass uprisings every six months when they would have no effect. What I would want is a system where the AI actually uses them effectively, and where uprisings that are crushed reduce the possibility of setting up new URs and clear the partisan impact on supply for a set period of time (the partisans were rounded up and dealt with).

You seem to be saying that uprisings every six months can somehow be done in a way that makes them not spammy. What's needed is more for GiEs to do, with an (singular) eventual uprising, in cooperation with outside help, being the end goal.

Now, if you said to me, "But URs should also generate covert ops points," then I'm all in favor of that suggestion. Or if you want to incorporate the 5345 suggestions in the other thread where we talked about all the interesting things you could hypothetically do as a GiE, then yes, I would also agree.

Yup, but these have to be part of a whole - partisan warfare that is so lame that you have to get the game to play it for you means that playing as a GiE is entirely lame.

But complaining about whack-a-mole in TFH implies it's like Communist revolts in Vic2 or something similar. It's simply not on the same scale; Hell, suppression even kills nationalism in the latest iteration of TFH, so you could hypothetically reduce ALL revolt risk and partisan impact in the occupied Soviet Union or annexed China to absolute zero with enough manpower in the right divisions.

Again, you're looking at this from the point of view of being an occupier, rather than considering how the game can accommodate someone playing as a GiE.

That would be wasteful of both manpower and IC; but since there are large portions of the planet with no impact on resource generation, manpower, leadership, or IC, who cares about the empty provinces? If you can't spare an AI partisan suppression theater with 2 CAV divisions to mop up the empty provinces when the AI fires a mass uprising at the wrong time, then you have problems.

Again with the AI-playing-the-game-for-you solutions . . .