Partisans and Guerrilas, improvements needed?

[Don_Quigleone]

One major deficiency of HoI2 that was never modeled well, and was subsequently almost never an issue, were partisans and guerillas. Considering they played an extremely large role in both the invasion of China, and Operation Barbarossa, perhaps they should be improved?

One improvement I would consider is that perhaps Encircled troops, depending on circumstances, should be able to "melt" into the countryside, as historically occured, and later come back as partisans. But I definetely think this should be looked at. It would also fix how underpowered communist China are ingame (as most of their operations were guerrilla operations)

 

[unmerged(79123)]

In general there should be a lot more partisan activity to deal with. Large scale conquests should tie up a lot of troops and troops in enemy territory should be forced to protect their supply lines from partisan and guerrila activity.

 

[unmerged(92480)]

Considering they played an extremely large role ...and Operation Barbarossa, perhaps they should be improved?

To be brief and simple: they were not "partisans" in general meaning. Their role was much less than you describe.

should be able to "melt" into the countryside, as historically occured, and later come back as partisans.

Very low quantity of troops did this. Where to get ammo? Food? Organization?

 

[Griffin.Gen]

To be brief and simple: they were not "partisans" in general meaning. Their role was much less than you describe.


Very low quantity of troops did this. Where to get ammo? Food? Organization?

Ammo: Stolen from the enemy
Food: From the local supporters or again, stolen from the enemy
Organization: Not much, they were never really organized.

 

[blue emu]

Ammo: Stolen from the enemy

"Wresting your weapons from the hands of the enemy" does have one big drawback... what if they won't let go?

 

[unmerged(92480)]

Ammo: Stolen from the enemy
Food: From the local supporters or again, stolen from the enemy
Organization: Not much, they were never really organized.

Well, seems you have a great experience of guerilla war. Alas, Russian encircled troops had not. They either surrendered (majority) or deserted to nearby villages (so called "priymaki") or were killed or moved through the front line.

Btw, those partisans who even fought as they could did not got ammo and food as you wrote. At least, not just as you wrote. Probably they were not such experienced as well

Sorry for some sarcasm

I know less about Chinese war, so wont write about it.

 

[Griffin.Gen]

Well, seems you have a great experience of guerilla war. Alas, Russian encircled troops had not. They either surrendered (majority) or deserted to nearby villages (so called "priymaki") or were killed or moved through the front line.

Btw, those partisans who even fought as they could did not got ammo and food as you wrote. At least, not just as you wrote. Probably they were not such experienced as well

Sorry for some sarcasm

I know less about Chinese war, so wont write about it.

Its ok, I'm sarcastic myself
I also meant they stole them in Ammo depots and sort. Either that or supplied from allies ( e.g. the British paradropped agents to help resistances members).
Yeah, i really dont know much about Guerilla fighting.

 

[Naga Niome]

I feel one of the major ways Partisans in HoI3 should be modeled is by the Intelligence system. You begin this by having to spend a small sum of money than supplies which trickles into these revolting provinces, from there on the Revolting level of the Provinces will rise steadily over the coming weeks which will eventually start spawning Partisans equal to your Militia technology level in Provinces in waves.

Thus if three Provinces have been funded for several weeks to 50-70 Revolt, they all simultaneously spawn a wave of 2-3 Milita units of the corresponding nations technology level to wrestle the Province and adjacent territories from their occupiers. Any division responsible or allied to those independent Militia's will have them automatically join their nation till it is restored, which then those Militia will subsequently end up in the newly-restored nations Deploy Pool.

This feature could be extremely powerful as full Strength, full Organization Milita's equal to your own will magically spawn and instantly begin combat. As well this feature could be extremely useful for events such as the Warsaw Uprising.

What I just described above is mean't for Governments-In-Exile and those Allied to that nation.

There should be another feature for funding Partisans in Provinces that are occupied but not annexed. I think it would be very useful for players like the Soviet's losing ground to the advancing German's. You can fund Partisans in your occupied but not annexed Provinces to lower the Supply Efficiency of occupying forces tremendously and the difference is those occupying forces must commit themselves to Anti-Partisanship, as their large presence not on that specific mission will not suffice. If this is continued for a good length of time in a Province not occupied, it will fall back into your control and a Militia unit will spawn in that Province at half-Strength and half-Organization.

 

[daemonofdecay]

I think that the Partisans of HOI2 tried to represent not only the "Resistance" movements in places like the Netherlands, which were much more oriented around sending information to the Allies, aiding spies and the like, and the more active Partisan activity in places like Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union. Heck, Tito's group had a full on armoured division before the war ended!

Most of what Partisans did "in game" was more behind the scenes, because they were affecting the TC of a nation (things like destroying raillines, ambushing unguarded trucks, etc.).

But with Paradox's new ideas about having a "government in exile" during the game, what I am thinking is that Partisans units that rise up in, say, Poland would immedietly be given over to the Polish player kind of thing.

 

[raider75]

Perhaps bringing up the original HOI system of convoys and excorts and applying it to partisan activity instead, u could select a unit to be "dispersed" within a region to act as anti-partisan patrols...idk how feasible/popular a system like this would be, but just spit-ballin

or maybe have a constructable building in provinces with varying levels of developement like"Police Station" "Informant facility" "Military Garrison" etc. etc. that would provide a bonus to keeping partisan activity down

 

[unmerged(13008)]

Don´t mess guerillas with Partisans, Resistance.

Afaik, Guerilla movements fight against their OWN government(also when annexed), because they want to change it for whatever political reason.

Partisans fight against an enemy, that has occupied parts of their home country. Just like the resistance, where ALL male french did work for ^^

I would love to have "spy" reports from countries with high resistance. Giving me info about troops, leaders etc.

And I would also like to have partisans work a little smarter. Right now, they don´t cost me more than one garrison every two provinces.
Maybe they should be able to pose a real threat if not taken seriously.

 

[unmerged(112350)]

???
Yugoslavia - they get rid of germans almost by them selfs.
Poland - Warsaw upraising in 44 held for 2 months + powerfull resistance + thousands of troops fighting with germans (+general upising agains them when soviet came close) - almost 500 000 people were sign in the AK
Russia - thousands of partisans fighting behind front line

resistance had great value IRL especcialy in the second part of the war when many transports with supplies and weapons didnt reach the front line

 

[Zaki]

Well, unfortunately, Yugoslavia didn't get rid of the Nazis all by its own. If that would be feasible, then we wouldn't let the enemy take the country at the first place, right? Red Army had very much to do with it. I mean, if we look Serbia as a part of Yugoslavia (as it was), in three years of fighting, resistant movement haven't done anything significant except causing huge retributions by the Nazis. And then Soviets arrived and drove Germans out of Serbia in just three weeks, liberating even major cities, like Belgrade.

I think that resistant movements through occupied Europe varied in their form of resistance. AFAIK, in theory partisans should keep low profile as long as frontline isn't near enough that they can wreak havoc and maybe even cause front to collapse on some parts. This is what Polish patriots tried to do with Warsaw uprising, only to find out that Soviets were much more cynical that they could ever imagine. In France, La Resistance did kill some of collaborationists, performed espionage missions and sabotages. In Yugoslavia, from various reasons, things looked quite different. I think that all this can be modeled in the game very accurately.

Also, Yugoslav gov. in exile had supported one resistant movement, and then toward the end of the war, they'd proclaimed that now they are supporting the other one. The first one did very little, if anything vs. Nazis compared with Tito's partisans. Also, they did some war crimes and atrocities, and gov. in exile agreed, pressed by the UK, to switch sides. So it's rather complicated, but could be done using rebels with different cause. Tito's partisans did tie a lot of German divisions in Yugoslavia, but the price was very high. At the end, Yugoslavia's population loss was over a million people. Compare it with France, or even UK… So, if we speak in HoI2 terms, I think that partisans were capable of winning battles against garrison units, but not against regulars, before Red Army had come. After that, we are not speaking about partisans (or guerrilla) anymore, as they joined the Soviets in the classic frontline warfare.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Present partisant system is to large extend determined by annexation/occupation/dissent/diplomacy systems.

Unless those things change (and there is a chance they will - see Johan's comments about goverments-in-exile), there is not much that can be done to properly simulate partisan activity.

In HoI2, main goal of partisan system was basically being in place (huge upgrade compared to the HoI1), affect TC (primary effect) and force player to send part of his manpower to garrison conquered areas (secondary target). On the way, it made puppets more attractive option then in HoI1 (bonus effect). Some of the modifiers based on terrain, status of province and ministers were of course in place. In Doomsday, option for funding partisans abroad was added, although I never really bothered with that - and it was not really all that good in practice because it depended on money (while some of the countries like USSR are not too good in producing it).

I would say, it's enough to simulate partisans in general. But if we want to simulate them properly (with differences depending on the country, reasons for that and dynamics of partisan movement development), we would need much more detailed system, with ability to determine reasons for certain populations to offer more resistance while others would resist less.

 

[unmerged(84607)]

I suggest:

1. Increasing partisan/resistance activity over time (unless garrisoned/MP'd).
2. TC (or equiv), IC (or equiv), unit movement, unit org regain etc all heavily affected. In the extreme, a single weak division might lose org by sitting in a really high MP, high partisan city (try maintaining order in a conquered Moscow using 10,000 green conscripts!)
3. Only in extreme circumstances should partisans form actual units on the map (immediately prior to liberation for example, see Warsaw) and when they do - they should belong to that country (to the exile gvmnt?)

in HoI2, partisan activity is hardly annoying enough. As a Germany which controls all the entries to the med, I can control and defend the balkans with three divisions of cavalry - hardly realistic.

 

[unmerged(12990)]

TRP/Compendium handled this nicely. Partisans weren't tough to beat, but they sprang up a LOT, and it took a long time to defeat them. Sure, one division could usually do it, but it was tied down for weeks, if not a month.

 

[unmerged(105989)]

I saw some interesting comments about events that could let you choose your occupation policy, and that would affect partisans, dissent, etc. That would nice if you had that option every time you DOW someone. Maybe just make it a policy that you can change. Military governors of annexed countries might also be something interesting.

Whatever the decision is, please oh please don't give us one like in rome TW, where rebels appear seemingly at random in well pacified areas. By the time you're at mid-game, most of your time is spent playing "whack a mole" rather than on conquering. Sure, partisans will always spring up, but the player should have the ability to do something pro-active to counter their formation.

 

[unmerged(84607)]

Sure, partisans will always spring up, but the player should have the ability to do something pro-active to counter their formation.

Garrisons with Military Police detachments? Or some version thereof. Hopefully supression effects are province wide.

 

[unmerged(105989)]

Garrisons with Military Police detachments? Or some version thereof. Hopefully supression effects are province wide.

Hopefully, could you imagine garrison with MPs for 10,000 provinces?? Germany would run out of manpower!! Of course, that could be partially solved by directing the production of mil-controlled puppets. As in tell Ukraine to focus only on garrison divisions, then you get to move them where you need them. Just like they did in reality. Still a huge problem with the new size of the map.

 

[Porkman]

Hopefully, could you imagine garrison with MPs for 10,000 provinces?? Germany would run out of manpower!! Of course, that could be partially solved by directing the production of mil-controlled puppets. As in tell Ukraine to focus only on garrison divisions, then you get to move them where you need them. Just like they did in reality. Still a huge problem with the new size of the map.

But historical. Have you ever looked at the size of the communist base areas during the war with Japan? Japan's problem wasn't so much beating the enemy force as it was finding enough troops to hold their gains. There were too many towns for them to garrison everything but the rail lines and the big cities. They would occasionally attack into the hinterlands but they never had enough manpower to stay.

Also, population density of the provinces should have an effect on partisan effectiveness. It takes more troops to garrison Moscow than it does to garrison Northern Finland.