Partisans and China

[Aetius]

True. Korea was occupied by Japan 12 years later than Taiwan, and thus Japan was a bit later in the process of "Japan-izing" it. Japan was able to draw manpower from Korea but the reliability of such manpower was suspect, best for the use of construction units, internal security and the like. Moreover a significant portion of the Korean guerilla strength fled into China and continued to fight along side Chinese Communist units right up until 1949. Recently released documents put ethnic Korean force strength in the PLA at upwards of 50K, easily warranting multiple divisional level units in game terms. Probably the best way to handle this in game terms is to give the Chinese Communists an event sometime in the late 30's/early 40's where they pick up an extra division. I wouldn't let Japan draw manpower from Korea. But no partisans in Korea either - the assumption is that whatever manpower Japan was able to get from Korea is used for internal (Korean pennisula) security purposes. China should not have a claim on Korea.

Korea provided troops, officers and industry for the Japanese, e.g. there was a Korean general within the IJA and Park, the Korean dictator during the 60s, was an former. Japanese counter-insurgency teams in China were often Korean. While the Koreans, just like the Taiwanese, were discriminated against, they still played a large role in the Japanese war effort. Remember at the same time Americans refused to allow blacks to serve in combat units, you might as well exclude Mississippi from the US national provinces then . The number of Koreans within the Japanese imperial administration etc steadily increased as the war continued (of course as did the suppression of dissent). I really don't see any reason that Korea should be exempted from the Japanese national provinces.

 

[The Witch-King]

the game portrayed the Nationalists as (indeed, rightly) the most powerful Chinese faction and the one most likely to rule. It didn't turn out that way, but the set-up historically and in-game favored the NatChis, and this is correct.

Well, in reality they were not that unlikely winners. I think it was more a case of them being undersestimated in the USA and some other places. The problem for the Chinese Reds in HoI1 is that their strengths in reality were in areas that are not modelled by that game.

 

[unmerged(42929)]

IIRC, HoI is banned because Sinkiang is not part of China. And not buying the game just because of that reason is absurd.

it's banned not only becoz of sinkiang,but also tibet and mengkukuo..
china has a long history and many territory arguement,it's hard for a historical game to pass the goverment's censor

 

[unmerged(42432)]

...but I guess in the PRC they've always been at war with Oceania.

LOL! That's one of the best films ever, and I think all diehard WW2 fans should see it. Especially the ones playing Comitern.

BTW, did you see those mass protests in front of Japanese embassy in Beijing yesterday? There were like gazzillion Chinese stoning the embassy and around 4-5 cops pointing fingers at them and telling them that they shouldn't do it.
Allegedely it all started because a new Japanese schoolbook doesn't use the word "invasion" to describe what happend. Jeez! One would think that smth that happened 60+ years ago would be forgiven for. Nobody (sane that is) still hates Germans because of what they did in WW2. It's not forgotten, but it's forgiven for.
You should see those few 80+ year old people in my country that actually had to do smth with the NDH and the fascist regime set up by Germans... It's a group of really old dribbling men still believing that fasicm is the way to go, but naturally noone takes them seriously and it's a sad sight to see cops arresting them for public display of banned insignia.

PS that U sign on the flag used for Croatia in HoI2 (see my avatar) is banned in Croatia. The ustasha U is to us like swastika is to germans. It doesn't bother me because I know what my forefathers thought and why they accepted fasicsm. Not that I support it ofcourse! What's odd is why did the Paradox keep it - guess that nobody bothers what a country of only 4 million feels...

 

[unmerged(42716)]

ComChi just hates that the HOI tells the truth, that it was Nationlists who defended the country and communists were only some kind of gangsters (they still ARE).
They seized the power by using uneducated peasants as tools. At last, the human waves won the standard army. Then they just f**ked about the people they used. Still they are controling the country they rubbed from people.
It IS a evil goverment! And evil must die!

 

[danoh]

This has been an interesting thread to browse for info on some Chinese/Japanse politics I know so little about. As far as the game goes:

Japan definitely needs to build more garrisons to cover China, especially if by "China" you include all the warlord states. Even not taking Sinkiang and Tibet, the rest of China will require a considerable garrison for a couple years.

That being said, a competent Japanese player can invade as soon as the army is pulled off the islands and Japan and shifted to attack positions. Employ the surround/kill tactics that work so well in most wargames, and you'll soon annex and then need lots of garrisons with mp brigades to bring China under control.

In my latest game as Japan, I waited until the June 1937 event to attack, having built up two mountain corps, a marine corps and ENG brigaded most the important boys. I annexed all but Sinkiang/Tibet by Christmas, 1937, but you can attack in Feb. 1936 and get it done much sooner.

 

[unmerged(3921)]

The game mechanics in Asia are frankly broken in HoI2. From the seminal Xian event having only one possible outcome to the brain dead Japanese AI to the historically incorrect focus on industrial output as a basis for fighting strength, the HoI game design assumptions simply don't work. Just be glad the game more or less works for modeling the ETO and focus your gameplay there.

 

[unmerged(3921)]

LVX and PinkPiglet, since you brought up the political issues here are the facts which you so clearly are ignorant of:

>Allegedely (sic) it (demonstrations) all started because a new Japanese schoolbook doesn't use the word "invasion" to describe what happend.

Not exactly. Like several Japanese textbooks that drew protests across Asia, not just in China, this one says that Japan was not the aggressor. Moreover the text book takes Chinese WW2 casualties and chops them half. What do you think the response would be from say the American Jewish community if a German textbook stated that the Holocaust was not a German attack on Jews and that only 3 million Jews died instead of 6 million? Do you think the response of the Jewish community would be justified? Evidently not. I suggest you reevaluate your thought process.

>ComChi just hates that the HOI tells the truth, that it was Nationlists who defended the country and communists were only some kind of gangsters (they still ARE).

Hmmm, "gangsters". So if that term was used by say, the top American officer in the Western PTO who worked closely with the KMT (Nationalists) and he used the term to refer to the KMT then he was just a fool, right? I suggest you brush up on General Stillwell's comments about the KMT and about CKS in particular. I do believe "Peanut" was the term he used for CKS in polite conversation. And no that was not a term of endearment. The KMT leadership was a kleptocracy plain and simple. CKS' family members simply stole half a billion dollars of US aid (in 1945 dollars, in current terms it'd be tens of billions of dollars) for their own personal coffers. In the 1944 Japanese Ichi-Go offensive, entire warehouses full of US arms and ammunition were captured intact by the Japanese because the KMT refused to distribute the weaponry to its own troops. Stillwell wrote chapters about how KMT generals often wouldn't even feed their own troops with the supplies given to them and would instead sell the material to pocket the money. No wonder the KMT collapsed like a wet taco whenever anyone (be they Japanese or CCP) attacked them.

 

[mib]

LOL! That's one of the best films ever, and I think all diehard WW2 fans should see it. Especially the ones playing Comitern.

Best... um, FILM? I'm afraid there's too much prolefeed in your brain! FILM! Harumph! How dare you disgrace the Dear Leader and My Personal Saviour, Comrade Eric Arthur Blair!!! FILM!

Well actually in HOI2 core territory kinda means the country has RIGHTFUL ownership to the said province - THAT IS RECOGNISED BY THE WORLD! ie., Sudetenland! (Munich Agreement) Now Japanese core in Taiwan... nobody gave the go-ahead for Japan to annex Taiwan or Korea. So I think ChiCom is pissed at Japan having core over Taiwan, not that all the warlords/cliques exist... ALL the warlords are in OFFICIAL ChiCom textbooks too. (Put in bad light of course. Not to say they don't deserve it.) After all, ComChi(in game) has all the core claims of the modern PRC doesn't it? Including Taiwan too?

Also, I think one of the reasons China banned it is because of the unfair treatment given towards China and Germany. So no swastikas, no Final Solution, no concentration camps, no terror bombing. And Paradox claims it's 'preserving historical accuracy'. If Paradox is willing to lie on behalf of Germany, I don't see why it shouldn't make Mao a Skill 10 Ubersupremereichsfeldmarschall with all the traits except Old Guard... :rofl:

PS. To all who though 1984 was simply blasting at Stalinism... nice try, but you're wrong. Dead wrong. Examine your own actions. See your reflection in the mirror - if you dare to look. I did. It opened up a new world for me.

 

[Hallsten]

I guess I'll have to try harder this time.
I believe the Japanese had crushed Taiwanese resistance to Japan by 1936, but Korea was a different story. It was possible to "integrate" Korean resources and factories but not the people. According to an official US government source, (The US government wouldn't lie to us, would it? ) "Kim Il Sung became a major communist guerrilla leader in the north. He waged an aggressive style of warfare by ambushing Japanese patrols. Right wing resistance groups also contested foreign exploitation. Syngman Rhee fled imprisonment and he publicized Korea's plight before world leaders in order to bring about international pressure on Japan. Korea became a land of absolutes where one resisted the Japanese or became their victim."

http://www.nps.gov/kwvm/war/resistance.htm

Having Korea as a Japanese core-area is a gameplay-induced technicality and has nothing to do with the fact that China has banned it.

As mentioned before, China's official history-view doesn't fit very well with reality. It's obvious that HOI/HOI2 are more historical than China can accept. Had Japan been a dictatorship I'm sure the games would have been banned since the Nanjing-massacre is modelled.
The Nanjing-massacre didn't happen or was very slight according to official Japanese sources and independent states didn't exist within China according to official Chinese sources.
The difference is that China is still a dictatorship and Japan is a democratic country, it has nothing to do with the fact that a Chinese censor disliked the Japanese cores in Korea...

 

[mib]

Having Korea as a Japanese core-area is a gameplay-induced technicality and has nothing to do with the fact that China has banned it.

As mentioned before, China's official history-view doesn't fit very well with reality. It's obvious that HOI/HOI2 are more historical than China can accept. Had Japan been a dictatorship I'm sure the games would have been banned since the Nanjing-massacre is modelled.
The Nanjing-massacre didn't happen or was very slight according to official Japanese sources and independent states didn't exist within China according to official Chinese sources.
The difference is that China is still a dictatorship and Japan is a democratic country, it has nothing to do with the fact that a Chinese censor disliked the Japanese cores in Korea...

China's official history-view doesn't fit very well? I'm sure Japan's version of reality fits even worse. Japan is a democracy that openly denys its past wrongdoings. Which is worse, a dictator or a hypocritical dictator?

 

[Hallsten]

China's official history-view doesn't fit very well? I'm sure Japan's version of reality fits even worse. Japan is a democracy that openly denys its past wrongdoings. Which is worse, a dictator or a hypocritical dictator?

I'm not at all condoning Japan's view on their wrongdoings in the war. I'm merely saying that in Japan you're allowed to talk about your country's atrocities whereas in China you are not. The fact that Japanese schoolbooks discribe the Nanjing-massacre as a mere incident is awful IMHO.

 

[unmerged(42432)]

mib - it was a JOKE!

And I prefer the film because that one opened up the magical world of cult classic films to me. (and yes, I love works of written art too) I'm proud to say that I now own a sizeable collection of cult films all thanks to the "1984" film.
BTW 1984 blasts at all forms of totalitarian goverments but the nearest paralel it has with the real world IS coldwar communistic USSR. C'mon man - food rationalisation, brotherhood and equality, propaganda at every step... Maybe you didn't know but at every post of every village/city of Warsaw pact countries there was a propaganda loudspeaker that was on 24/7. I know that capitalistic media called TV is just a fancy version of the same but that is up to the reader/viewer to realise. Anyway this is goinig waaay offtopic and I'm not in the mood for another political verbal fight. Please ignore my post and enjoy the great work of "the Dear Leader and My Personal Saviour, Comrade Eric Arthur Blair"...

Back to topic: every communistic regimes have always tried to distort history. Maybe they see themselves as always being the big state they are now. Who knows for sure? The point is that they banned HoI and that is a serious reason enough to hate them all...
History books... Well, I'm pretty sure that average chinese peasant doesn't care what it says in some book in a foreign land he's never seen. Though my opinion is that the Japan must correct it's mistake and fully admit commiting atrocities during WW2.

 

[mib]

mib - it was a JOKE!

And I prefer the film because that one opened up the magical world of cult classic films to me. (and yes, I love works of written art too) I'm proud to say that I now own a sizeable collection of cult films all thanks to the "1984" film.
BTW 1984 blasts at all forms of totalitarian goverments but the nearest paralel it has with the real world IS coldwar communistic USSR. C'mon man - food rationalisation, brotherhood and equality, propaganda at every step... Maybe you didn't know but at every post of every village/city of Warsaw pact countries there was a propaganda loudspeaker that was on 24/7. I know that capitalistic media called TV is just a fancy version of the same but that is up to the reader/viewer to realise. Anyway this is goinig waaay offtopic and I'm not in the mood for another political verbal fight. Please ignore my post and enjoy the great work of "the Dear Leader and My Personal Saviour, Comrade Eric Arthur Blair"...

Back to topic: every communistic regimes have always tried to distort history. Maybe they see themselves as always being the big state they are now. Who knows for sure? The point is that they banned HoI and that is a serious reason enough to hate them all...
History books... Well, I'm pretty sure that average chinese peasant doesn't care what it says in some book in a foreign land he's never seen. Though my opinion is that the Japan must correct it's mistake and fully admit commiting atrocities during WW2.

OK, OK! I must admit though, I get rather upset/worked up when some ignorant n00b doesn't understand what political allegories/satires/expositions are actually trying to say. As for 1984 drawing parallels to the Soviet Union - there's no denying that. However, the USSR wasn't the only thing being targeted. I would love to discuss this at length, but this is neither the place or time (4AM!!!) So I'll do a quickie - think of some instances of doublethink in your life.

 

[unmerged(42716)]

Very happy to find a place to discuss the policy and history of China.
This kind of forums would be banned if it was in ComChi.
Probably, cruption is one of the reasons for which Nationlist lost the civil war.Actually, cruption has been a problem to Chinese for ages. It's even can be called some kind of a tradition. The officers just intend to richen themselvis by taking advantage of their jobs. And the situation is getting worse in mainland today. The gevorment is totally crupted.
I think, more direct the reason they lost is they were too far away their ally. Compare with USSR, USA is far too far away. The supply and equipment took months to be shiped to Nanjin.
And after the WWII, KMT had been exhausted, any elite troops lost. Then the communists launched offensive and overrun them with human waves tactice at a price of lots of innecent people's lifes, which is what communists never minded.
And I believe in today's world, communits are the only goverment who can shoot their unarmed citizens to protect their dictatorship. Ruling like gangsters is the reason I call them gangsters.

 

[Risa]

Every dictatorship government can shoot their unarmed citizens when defending their ruling. It isn't unique to communist dictatorship. And not all communists are dctatorship, though many of them were/are.

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

PS that U sign on the flag used for Croatia in HoI2 (see my avatar) is banned in Croatia. The ustasha U is to us like swastika is to germans. It doesn't bother me because I know what my forefathers thought and why they accepted fasicsm. Not that I support it ofcourse! What's odd is why did the Paradox keep it - guess that nobody bothers what a country of only 4 million feels...

Failure to inform its citizens of there rights is very common in Croatia today, laws constantly being changed and unless it is about zero alcohol tolerance while driving nobody cares about them.

U isn't banned in Croatia what is banned is glorification of fascist regimes and organizations or promotion of racism.

So your free to use U as much as you want as long it has nothing to do with glorification of Pavelic regime.

Similar law existed before 1990 and communists had no problem about U appearing in there war movies in which more people got killed then in four years of war, masses of Germans, Italians and collaborators and occasionally brave resistance fighter or innocent civilian.

 

[mib]

Every dictatorship government can shoot their unarmed citizens when defending their ruling. It isn't unique to communist dictatorship. And not all communists are dctatorship, though many of them were/are.

Nay, nay. Every GOVERNMENT can shoot its own people to defend its rule.

 

[unmerged(42432)]

U isn't banned in Croatia what is banned is glorification of fascist regimes and organizations or promotion of racism.

So your free to use U as much as you want as long it has nothing to do with glorification of Pavelic regime.

Pazi Mirko metak!

Well it's okay to use swastika in documentary purposes too, I meant that event when a group of "Domobrani" from Zadar were on the Mirko Norac protest. It was a big fuss then, and it would still be if one would dress in the black ustasha uniform and march up and down the square demanding genocide upon the rest of the world...