Parental upbringing: opinions wanted

[unmerged(5822)]

As part of my work on education changes (which is pretty much finished now, btw), one of the things I set out to change is the liberal giving-out of permanent stat modifications as they both have the potential to seriously affect the game balance after a while and tend to be used to simulate things that shouldn't be simulated by stat changes (and, not rarely, could be handled better in other ways).

One of the things I want to change is the current penalty associated with parental upbringing (20% chance of -1 fertility and 5% chance of -1 health). It is not good at all to change the stats of a character that has a proven ability and opportunity to procreate, especially as it may eventually "force" a casual player to start an unwanted small breeding program to restore fertility (and health) to his dynasty. Surely there has got to be a better way?

Here are some suggestions on what could be done:

1. Limited ability to raise several children:
   • Each parental upbringing has a chance of making the ruler stressed (in the "pay up" event).
   • Stressed (and derivatives) block any further parental upbringing events so that any further children will have to make do without parental upbringing.
2. No new children for a short while after going with parental upbringing:
   • Going with parental upbringing makes the ruler lose 25 fertility.
   • A new event is added for characters with sub-0 fertility, giving them +25 fertility, with a mtth of 12 months (but with a modifier of 0.0025 if the wife is pregnant OR pretty instant death of the infant after birth). The net effect should be that the ruler won't spawn any new kids for a short while, without passing on any corrupted seed to the children.
3. Increased child mortality rates for parents with children that have parental upbringing (possibly excepting parental upbringing children above age X, as they don't crave as much attention anymore).
4. Only one child may receive parental upbringing at a time (possibly excepting parental upbringing children above age X, as they don't crave as much attention anymore).

Opinions?

I am open to any solution that doesn't involve permanent modifications to the ruler's stats.

 

[Mohe]

I totally agree with you about the permanent fertility reduction, it stinks and it makes no sense

I think #1 is the only good option, the others are way too gamey and #3 makes absolutely no sense.

I think I may have a better idea:

How about a possibility of assigning the chaste tag to those who choose parental upbringing? It does reduce fertility and it sort of represents the moral/family dynamics issue really well.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Chaste doesn't reduce fertility atm.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

Chaste doesn't reduce fertility atm.

So many problems (small, perhaps, but still problems) would go away if fertility reduction from traits worked properly...
(it would probably have been perfect, or at least very good, to use here otherwise...)

 

[Fawr]

Since the discussion of this idea has been moved I'll put my current suggestion here again.

I don't like making the father stressed for starting to care for his children. I think it should be something that appears (and maybe reappears) based on the childhood events. I imagine that deciding to raise your own child is a rewarding experience, its only when you get down to doing it that it becomes stressful. You could also include other penalties the same way.

So to get this you would create some new events which would be triggered by the current childhood trait_events, for example a "Raising a child is stressful" event which makes the character stressed.

Then when an event like "your child is slow learning to talk" fires the different options would have a chances of firing the "raising a child is stressful" event from above.

You could also make other effects from raising a child. Basically lost of the early childhood ones are potentially stressful. Some of the religious events could cause trouble with the clergy (reduced clergy loyalty in a random province and lower piety for dad), depending on what you choose. Similarly some events may be an embarisment for dad, and could have other penalties.

 

[unmerged(53541)]

Is it actually worth it to use parental upbringing at all? From all I can see I pay money, have chance of reduced health and fertility only to give my successor a speech impediment (though I've never seen that one as a trait despite 50% chance) and selfishness?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Parental upbringing allows you more control on what traits your kid picks up. To be fair, you have very little influence on how your kids turn up in other approaches.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

Since the discussion of this idea has been moved I'll put my current suggestion here again.

I don't like making the father stressed for starting to care for his children. I think it should be something that appears (and maybe reappears) based on the childhood events. I imagine that deciding to raise your own child is a rewarding experience, its only when you get down to doing it that it becomes stressful. You could also include other penalties the same way.

So to get this you would create some new events which would be triggered by the current childhood trait_events, for example a "Raising a child is stressful" event which makes the character stressed.

Then when an event like "your child is slow learning to talk" fires the different options would have a chances of firing the "raising a child is stressful" event from above.

You could also make other effects from raising a child. Basically lost of the early childhood ones are potentially stressful. Some of the religious events could cause trouble with the clergy (reduced clergy loyalty in a random province and lower piety for dad), depending on what you choose. Similarly some events may be an embarisment for dad, and could have other penalties.

Sounds like another alternative. Could you elaborate a bit more on the likelihood of the event firing?

 

[Fawr]

Sounds like another alternative. Could you elaborate a bit more on the likelihood of the event firing?

Thats really a question for balancing out. But my shot at a first try would be like this (basing my observations from the files in the "education" mod).

There are 5 early childhood ones each with a MTTH of 150 months and which go for 2 years. I suggest a 20% chance of stress for each one that fires. That gives a parent a 20% chance of stress overall by the time the child turns 6.

I would make most of the middle childhood ones also grant on average a 10% chance of stress. Making stress around 30% likely by the time the child is 11. The later events are better handled with different penalties. The religious ones should cause drops in piety and clerical loyalty in a random province.

Of course if you did this then I would like to see more of these childhood education events with more varied effects on the father.

 

[Jos Theelen]

Parental upbringing allows you more control on what traits your kid picks up. To be fair, you have very little influence on how your kids turn up in other approaches.

I agree with this. Imo parental upbringing should change the stats of the child, not the stats of the father.
Maybe a rule that parental upbringing makes the stats of the child more alike the stats of the father. For each stat 50% (or another) chance that the stat of the child changes to the stat of the father.

 

[Mohe]

Chaste doesn't reduce fertility atm.

Ahh well, is that WAD?

no comment needed if it is not...

 

[Yakman]

Why do we need additional penalties? You have to pay out money anyways.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Ahh well, is that WAD?

no comment needed if it is not...

It is atm WAD that it doesn't. Fertility reductions do work up to at least a some degree technically, it just isn't assigned any penalty there. You may always dispute this in the traits thread.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

Why do we need additional penalties? You have to pay out money anyways.

Apparently, that's not enough...