Paratroopers

[EU3NOOB]

When watching WWW and witnessing the conquest of Berlin and the continued attempts by Daniel to land in Britain via paratrooper divisions I have a suggestion:


Have Paratroop divisions operation under similar mechanics as raiders from CKII.

Basically, for those who've never played CKII, raiders are basically any raised levy army that are turned into raiders that attack neighboring realms to steal some loot from their provinces. As raiders, done by pressing a button on the army display, they can siege down provinces, but they can't occupy holdings.

What I'm asking for paratroops is simple: give them two modes: Normal mode, they act like any normal infantry unit, and Paratroop mode, where a unit can be air dropped behind enemy lines.

An Airborne unit with Paratroop mode activated will be able to do paratroop missions, but will suffer from extreme movement penalties and, if they have artillery attached, lose their artillery, this represents their not being able to bring heavy equipment on the mission. In this mode Airborne units will not be able to flip occupation of enemy territory to you, but will give a province they sit in a modifier that will affect infrastructure and thus enemy movement speed.

This represents the primary mission of an airborne unit of capturing crossroads and bridges in order to deny them to the enemy.

Also, I think landing in the Crimea without said force controlling the Sea of Marmara should be impossible.

 

[kalauer]

An Airborne unit with Paratroop mode activated will be able to do paratroop missions, but will suffer from extreme movement penalties and, if they have artillery attached, lose their artillery, this represents their not being able to bring heavy equipment on the mission. In this mode Airborne units will not be able to flip occupation of enemy territory to you, but will give a province they sit in a modifier that will affect infrastructure and thus enemy movement speed.

This represents the primary mission of an airborne unit of capturing crossroads and bridges in order to deny them to the enemy.

So any INF can do paratroop missions? How does this relate to reality? And what would it do in the game?

When they sit there, can they be attacked? If yes, then the modifier is useless since one can only move through there when they are gone. If not... well, seemed weird.

Why the penalty to movement speed? Do they break their legs when junping (fitting if any INF can do it)?

 

[Lorymat]

An Airborne unit with Paratroop mode activated will be able to do paratroop missions, but will suffer from extreme movement penalties and, if they have artillery attached, lose their artillery, this represents their not being able to bring heavy equipment on the mission. .

Airborne units in WW2 did have the ability to bring heavy equipment on missions via gliders - lightweight AT guns, pack howitzers and even jeeps, so I'd love to see that get incorporated into the paratroop mechanic in HOI 4.

What I'm asking for paratroops is simple: give them two modes: Normal mode, they act like any normal infantry unit, and Paratroop mode, where a unit can be air dropped behind enemy lines.
This represents the primary mission of an airborne unit of capturing crossroads and bridges in order to deny them to the enemy.

You have to understand that the HOI franchise is not a battalion/regimental scale game, so you can't actually model in the capture of crossroads and bridges (unfortunately). That being said, a lot of stuff needs to be "simulated" with modifiers,something that I don't see happening any time soon.

I do agree with you on the fact that a single airborne unit cannot occupy an entire province and that there should be some kind of a modifier for both the AI and the player when airborne units are situated in a province they parachuted in. Like you said, the most obvious ones are movement and supply penalties for the AI , but I'd also add a big organisation hit on the paratroop units as well (to somewhat simulate the time it takes for a whole regiment or division to regroup and establish CPs,communications, additional LZs etc.).

 

[LordOfWar16]

Airborne units in WW2 did have the ability to bring heavy equipment on missions via gliders - lightweight AT guns, pack howitzers and even jeeps, so I'd love to see that get incorporated into the paratroop mechanic in HOI 4.

You can already do that. Support Brigades attached to an division will adopt their attributes. If you add support artillery and/or AT-guns to your paratroopers they will still be able to paradrop, but will take up more supply of course. Same goes for recon units and the other support companies of course.

If you add them to tank divisions they will be conisdered towed artillery/at-guns/aa-guns for example and match their speed without slowing them down.

In theory if you want to be a bit annoying in the pacific for example you could add engineers, support artillery, support at-guns, support aa-guns and recon to your paratroopers and let them dig in on those occupied islands to make it a bit harder and costly for the enemy to retake them, as an example.

Support brigades are smaller than full-scale brigades of course and dont have the same firepower as such.

 

[Lorymat]

You can already do that. Support Brigades attached to an division will adopt their attributes. If you add support artillery and/or AT-guns to your paratroopers they will still be able to paradrop, but will take up more supply of course. Same goes for recon units and the other support companies of course.

If you add them to tank divisions they will be conisdered towed artillery/at-guns/aa-guns for example and match their speed without slowing them down.

In theory if you want to be a bit annoying in the pacific for example you could add engineers, support artillery, support at-guns, support aa-guns and recon to your paratroopers and let them dig in on those occupied islands to make it a bit harder and costly for the enemy to retake them, as an example.

Support brigades are smaller than full-scale brigades of course and dont have the same firepower as such.

Must have missed a DD somewhere (AGAIN!) ,but thank you for the info . Can't say I really like the idea of such an arbitrary mechanic, but it's better than nothing. The thing about the HOI franchise is, that it's a real balancing act between gameplay and historical/military accuracy and I keep forgetting that it's not targeting a niche market like it used to.

 

[CGFleischer]

When they sit there, can they be attacked? If yes, then the modifier is useless since one can only move through there when they are gone. If not... well, seemed weird.

Why the penalty to movement speed? Do they break their legs when junping (fitting if any INF can do it)?

As a part of an invasion, the modifier wouldn't be useless.
If airbornes/paratroopers are used as part of an invasion, why shouldnt them landing "inland" and already being present in a zone to be invaded modify something?
Seems logical to me.

During case yellow, the germans established control over several bridgeheads in Holland. Hindering allied while simultanously enabling their own motorized advance.
This was done by paratroopers, and highly effectively as well.

If what i'm reading here is true, that "HOI franchise is not a battalion/regimental scale game, so you can't actually model in the capture of crossroads and bridges (unfortunately)", I am deeply dissapointed. It shouldn't be an issue to simulate this with modifiers etc, in a province.

Personally, I would be happy to see a more dynamic approach to specialist troops in combat, rather than just adding value X to combat strength.
As this would help simulate A) what specialist (i.e. airborne inf) often were deployed for B) avoid a "regimental scale" game by simulating the possible importance of small-scale operations/actions such as paratrooper deployment


edit: pardon me if something i've written is mentioned or conflicts with a DD etc. as i simply haven't 100%'d the pdx forums

 

[KalZakath]

The espionage function isn't in yet - and IIRC, wasn't in HOI3 at the start either. This would be something that could be perhaps handled through that kind of function, rather than the pure paratroop drops, which seem to model the much larger drops.

I can see it working like this:

Infiltration mission: The movement through a targeted enemy area is increased for friendly troops, and decreased for enemy troops. Other effects could include supply, etc.

A lot depends on how the espionage function is going to work, or if there even is going to be one, though.

 

[Mannstien]

As long as you need Air Superiority by some margin and they cost a lot more than regular infantry including not holding up against Panzers lol

 

[Lorymat]

As a part of an invasion, the modifier wouldn't be useless.
If airbornes/paratroopers are used as part of an invasion, why shouldnt them landing "inland" and already being present in a zone to be invaded modify something?
Seems logical to me.

During case yellow, the germans established control over several bridgeheads in Holland. Hindering allied while simultanously enabling their own motorized advance.
This was done by paratroopers, and highly effectively as well.

If what i'm reading here is true, that "HOI franchise is not a battalion/regimental scale game, so you can't actually model in the capture of crossroads and bridges (unfortunately)", I am deeply dissapointed. It shouldn't be an issue to simulate this with modifiers etc, in a province.

Personally, I would be happy to see a more dynamic approach to specialist troops in combat, rather than just adding value X to combat strength.
As this would help simulate A) what specialist (i.e. airborne inf) often were deployed for B) avoid a "regimental scale" game by simulating the possible importance of small-scale operations/actions such as paratrooper deployment


edit: pardon me if something i've written is mentioned or conflicts with a DD etc. as i simply haven't 100%'d the pdx forums

Well in HOI's defence, the game is not aimed at the same audience as for example, Gary Grigsby's games or even more serious wargames of the same theme, so there's a lot of "simulated" things going on in the background to make it easier for wargame newbies. The game focuses on divisional/army warfare so there's no way you could integrate small scale battalion or regimental ops in the scope that the game is in. That's my main gripe with the airborne troops and airborne ops in general in the game. An airborne division CANNOT occupy large chunks of provinces on it's own regardless how big or small the province is.

The espionage function isn't in yet - and IIRC, wasn't in HOI3 at the start either. This would be something that could be perhaps handled through that kind of function, rather than the pure paratroop drops, which seem to model the much larger drops.

I can see it working like this:

Infiltration mission: The movement through a targeted enemy area is increased for friendly troops, and decreased for enemy troops. Other effects could include supply, etc.

A lot depends on how the espionage function is going to work, or if there even is going to be one, though.

Like I stated in the post above, if an airborne "division" "occupies" a province it should put a negative modifier to the enemy movement and supply and the airborne unit's organisational level (to simulate the time it takes for a whole regiment or division to regroup and establish CPs,communications, additional LZs etc.). At least it would do the airborne units more justice than making them just infantry units that can capture any province they can reach with their transports. (like in past HOI titles).

 

[CGFleischer]

Well in HOI's defence, the game is not aimed at the same audience as for example, Gary Grigsby's games or even more serious wargames of the same theme, so there's a lot of "simulated" things going on in the background to make it easier for wargame newbies. The game focuses on divisional/army warfare so there's no way you could integrate small scale battalion or regimental ops in the scope that the game is in. That's my main gripe with the airborne troops and airborne ops in general in the game. An airborne division CANNOT occupy large chunks of provinces on it's own regardless how big or small the province is.

I don't see why a modifier of them being present cannot be done, regardless of wether or not the paratroopers are techically occupying it or not: they are still operating in that area/region.
Although on the question of wether not small numbers of airborne troops could occupy a large chunk of provinces, I agree with you. They shouldn't be able to.

 

[Lorymat]

I don't see why a modifier of them being present cannot be done, regardless of wether or not the paratroopers are techically occupying it or not: they are still operating in that area/region.

Because of a few reasons : "These units are OP" "This is gamey" "Players can exploit it in MP" etc. there's a fine line with games of this scale between doing things right,historicaly and militarily accurate and balancing the gameplay. Like I said, this game is not a real wargame, it's not targeted at the same audience, so some things have to be "dumbed down".

Although on the question of wether not small numbers of airborne troops could occupy a large chunk of provinces, I agree with you. They shouldn't be able to.

It's not the amount of troops, it's the fact that, at least during WW2 (I'm focusing on Operation Neptune as part of Overlord), it took airborne units DAYS to reorganize,set up CPs, Field Hospitals, communication lines,supply lines etc. something that EVERY unit needs to have if it wants to operate efficiently especially for a long period of time. (Logistics are the most important part of warfare)

It still could not operate on its own without the support of army units that were coming off the beaches and gliders landing on pre-determined LZs that brought heavy equipment,medical supplies etc. That's why I'd like to see an organisational and supply penalty for airborne units if they stay in a province for too long and are cut off from other nearby units.

 

[EU3NOOB]

So any INF can do paratroop missions? How does this relate to reality? And what would it do in the game?

When they sit there, can they be attacked? If yes, then the modifier is useless since one can only move through there when they are gone. If not... well, seemed weird.

Why the penalty to movement speed? Do they break their legs when junping (fitting if any INF can do it)?

No. Not all INF can do it. Only specially designated Paratroop divisions, as per what's already known to be in the game, can. The reason for the movement penalty is because a paratroop unit is merely supposed to hold a position until relieved by the incoming invasion.

You have to understand that the HOI franchise is not a battalion/regimental scale game, so you can't actually model in the capture of crossroads and bridges (unfortunately). That being said, a lot of stuff needs to be "simulated" with modifiers,something that I don't see happening any time soon.

I do agree with you on the fact that a single airborne unit cannot occupy an entire province and that there should be some kind of a modifier for both the AI and the player when airborne units are situated in a province they parachuted in. Like you said, the most obvious ones are movement and supply penalties for the AI , but I'd also add a big organisation hit on the paratroop units as well (to somewhat simulate the time it takes for a whole regiment or division to regroup and establish CPs,communications, additional LZs etc.).

Why does that matter? P-dox used, as I've noted, a similar concept in CKII. I'm not asking for some completely alien concept from them.


And agreed on the second paragraph. If you're not using paratroops as a prelude to an invasion, you probably should reconsider using the paratroops in the first place.

 

[CGFleischer]

Because of a few reasons : "These units are OP" "This is gamey" "Players can exploit it in MP" etc. there's a fine line with games of this scale between doing things right,historicaly and militarily accurate and balancing the gameplay. Like I said, this game is not a real wargame, it's not targeted at the same audience, so some things have to be "dumbed down".


It's not the amount of troops, it's the fact that, at least during WW2 (I'm focusing on Operation Neptune as part of Overlord), it took airborne units DAYS to reorganize,set up CPs, Field Hospitals, communication lines,supply lines etc. something that EVERY unit needs to have if it wants to operate efficiently especially for a long period of time. (Logistics are the most important part of warfare)

It still could not operate on its own without the support of army units that were coming off the beaches and gliders landing on pre-determined LZs that brought heavy equipment,medical supplies etc. That's why I'd like to see an organisational and supply penalty for airborne units if they stay in a province for too long and are cut off from other nearby units.

Although limited in scope, my knowledge regarding HoI and game mechanics/design in general still doesn't exclude the addition of a modifier of paratroopers being present.
These units being too OP, this is gamey, can be exploitable is simply matters of balance.
What is the difference between a focus, or a type of equipment giving +X "disruption of enemy X" and paratroopers doing it?
The only difference i see is that the modifier is tied to a type of unit, rather than a focus; just like how the addition of a signalling corps etc. to your divisions similarly add modifiers.
Here the modifier is simply dynamic and moves with your troops, and only works on the area these specific troops are deployed.

Although I partly agree, logistics are important and airborne troops often struggled with the fact that they landed behind enemy lines and thus had limited options in terms of communication and logistics. However, does this mean every airborne infantryman instantly died and thus this is silly? No.
Also, "the fact" that it took airborne units during ww2 DAYS to do X stuff is simply not a fact, but a lie.
There are plenty of airborne operations which were sucessfull, and lasted less than 24 hours. A time limit by which forces to this day operate and do impactful operations, without the "typical" logistics and communication in place.

When paratroopers were used, and even when they were not; is a completely realistic rendition of the times (both the germans and the allied had multiple and far reaching airborne programs and planned operations that never were utilized) and contributes to the "open-ness" and focus towards ahistorical possibilities and player choice PDX has indicated they want, rather than the rigid and strict ww2 replay HoI has been percieved to be.

Simply ignoring and dismissing any meaningful and realistic rendition of airborne forces, based on your personal whim is just silly.
You keep saying "HoI is simply not that small-scale game" yet other small-scale events are simulated, and this could very well be done so meaningfully too.
This is a simple modifier added to x unit. Which is already done by other units.

Regarding giving penalties to airborne troops, I agree.

 

[Lorymat]

I already stated on a few posts that I agree on the modifiers tied to paratroopers and I even explained how I'd like to see it work, but I've also played enough of Paradox games over the years to at least have an idea on what the devs and the community focus on the most (the military aspect was NEVER a part of their focus, otherwise you'd see completely different games which are more closely tied to REAL wargames of the past and present). Everything I've seen so far is really arbitrary and dumbed down to the point of EU4 simplicity and that's why I don't think that modifiers that actually portray a somewhat realistic warfare mechanic will ever happen.

I mean, look at HOI3 for example. I can take two full corps of airborne units and drop them on Copenhagen, the minute they land AS A DIVISION I - not only occupied the area that they dropped in, but I can instantly move to another province without any kind of organisational hit and get to Kiel in a few days. Is that realistic? Have the airborne units in the past managed to occupy a 1000+km area in a few days? If so please give me an example. The game does not simulate airborne assaults as it should, but rather gives you a unit with about 10,000 men that are dropped on a province. That's it. That's all the game does.

Also, "the fact" that it took airborne units during ww2 DAYS to do X stuff is simply not a fact, but a lie.
There are plenty of airborne operations which were successful, and lasted less than 24 hours. A time limit by which forces to this day operate and do impactful operations, without the "typical" logistics and communication in place.

And again you're missing the point. I was referring to whole divisions not their subordinate units. For example, the 101st wasn't completely operationally ready and under divisional control for a whole day after the jump and it was missing half of its units until it got reorganized.

The game portrays airborne units like DIVISIONS,not companies, not battalions, not regiments, but whole divisions and (if we're going to compare it with real life) there has never EVER in WW2 been a situation where a whole airborne DIVISION (of 10,000+ men) managed to land on the enemy's backyard (all at the same spot), occupy it completely, and successfully engage other divisions and advance through the enemy territory in a day.
You had different regiments fighting in different sectors across the entire front and some of these sectors might as well be on different provinces in the game. Not to mention that even some of the units were not fully up to strength and were disorganized and scattered and bunched up with other completely different subordinate units of other divisions.

Simply ignoring and dismissing any meaningful and realistic rendition of airborne forces, based on your personal whim is just silly.
You keep saying "HoI is simply not that small-scale game" yet other small-scale events are simulated, and this could very well be done so meaningfully too.
This is a simple modifier added to x unit. Which is already done by other units.

I'm not dismissing anything, but I am trying to portray real world scenarios in-game and as it stands - it doesn't work. If you think that an invasion force just drops on enemy territory without losing any units, reorganizes and plans operations and attacks on a several hundred kilometer wide front without any kind of support and sustains these kinds of operations for weeks, then you're the one who actually is dismissing "any meaningful and realistic rendition of airborne forces". Go play a few other Paradox games and you'll get the idea of "meaningful and realistic rendition of airborne forces".

 

[incarnate]

Well in HOI's defence, the game is not aimed at the same audience as for example, Gary Grigsby's games or even more serious wargames of the same theme, so there's a lot of "simulated" things going on in the background to make it easier for wargame newbies. The game focuses on divisional/army warfare so there's no way you could integrate small scale battalion or regimental ops in the scope that the game is in. That's my main gripe with the airborne troops and airborne ops in general in the game. An airborne division CANNOT occupy large chunks of provinces on it's own regardless how big or small the province is.




Like I stated in the post above, if an airborne "division" "occupies" a province it should put a negative modifier to the enemy movement and supply and the airborne unit's organisational level (to simulate the time it takes for a whole regiment or division to regroup and establish CPs,communications, additional LZs etc.). At least it would do the airborne units more justice than making them just infantry units that can capture any province they can reach with their transports. (like in past HOI titles).

I just read a book about Easy Company in 2nd Battalion 106th Regiment 101st Airborne Division and the Division sure did occupy territory in certain stages of the war. As a matter of fact their Regiment even occupied the territory I grew up in for about a month in April 1945 and it is therefore quite feasible for paratroopers to do this.

I get why you are saying they shouldn't but the paratroopers were oftentimes used to fill gaps in the front. As a matter of fact all but two members of the Company only made two combat jumps. One on DDay and one for Market Garden. All the other engagements, among them their hardest fight during the german offensive in the Ardennes in 1944/45 where them fighting as regular infantry filling gaps whereever the allied armies struggled.

Edit: Continuing to read the thread I just realized you probably even already knew what I just wrote. I think you might actually be onto something when you say they shouldn't immediately occupy a whole province when they drop onto it. But so should all other Divisions imo. It is just part of the game that the province changes it's owner at the precise hour enemy troops arrive in it and no allied troops are present anymore. That is unrealistic regardless of what unit conquers it.

 

[MajorHeartfire]

I think a simple modifier to prohibit the capture of urban provinces would be fine. During that same time period, I would recommend a decreased combat ability when outnumbered, and a decrease to supply flow through the province (undoubtedly a paratrooper division could disrupt the supplies going through the territory regardless of how concentrated they were in number).

That being said, the real problem is that Daniel was not garrisoning anything. That should absolutely be required to have a successful occupation. Garrison units should be able to defeat or at least hold off paratroopers.

 

[Lorymat]

I just read a book about Easy Company in 2nd Battalion 106th Regiment 101st Airborne Division and the Division sure did occupy territory in certain stages of the war. As a matter of fact their Regiment even occupied the territory I grew up in for about a month in April 1945 and it is therefore quite feasible for paratroopers to do this.

I get why you are saying they shouldn't but the paratroopers were oftentimes used to fill gaps in the front. As a matter of fact all but two members of the Company only made two combat jumps. One on DDay and one for Market Garden. All the other engagements, among them their hardest fight during the german offensive in the Ardennes in 1944/45 where them fighting as regular infantry filling gaps whereever the allied armies struggled.

Edit: Continuing to read the thread I just realized you probably even already knew what I just wrote. I think you might actually be onto something when you say they shouldn't immediately occupy a whole province when they drop onto it. But so should all other Divisions imo. It is just part of the game that the province changes it's owner at the precise hour enemy troops arrive in it and no allied troops are present anymore. That is unrealistic regardless of what unit conquers it.

Yeah, the 506th PIR did an awesome job during the whole campaign along with their comrades of the rest of the 101st. I don't have a problem with airborne units fighting other units or occupying areas, because they still are infantry units through and through and I never said otherwise. I mean the 82nd,101st and the 1st British went through hell during the campaign as infantrymen. Just like VDV in the east and Falschimjagers on Crete. Even though I'm not a huge fan of airborne troops, especially seeing as they are not really "airborne" but more air-mobile today (well maybe not VDV, they are kinda both) and don't see the point of airborne invasions in today's military ops, I still think that they left a huge mark on military strategy in every single country around the world.

But back on topic - I was talking about the initial invasion, the first 24h and how it should negitavely impact the user of said units.

The problem I have with the current mechanic which, from what I've seen, is not a whole lot different compared to HOI3 is that you are not penalized whatsoever when using airborne units for the inital landings.

You can stack as many transports as you like, with as many airborne units as you like and capture any province in the transport's range as long as you have air superiority. If that's not oversimplification of a specialist unit, I don't know what is. I would like to see some kind of a cooldown effect for any unit that is paradropped onto a province so that it cannot move for at least 48h out of a province.
That would be enough to simulate the regrouping phase,occupying phase and give both the player and the enemy time to react to the invasion in a proper manner. (Keep in mind, I'm talking about ungarrisoned provinces!)
Add to that negative modifiers for organisation and supply for your unit and a negative movement,supply and organisation modifiers to the enemy's units in the same province and you get a semi-decent airborne mechanic IMO.

That being said, the real problem is that Daniel was not garrisoning anything. That should absolutely be required to have a successful occupation. Garrison units should be able to defeat or at least hold off paratroopers.

I agree, the whole WWW thing was just a speedrun practically so they didn't go in depth all that much.

 

[Hoi3 <3]

Anyone have a good paratrooping dropping tutorial?

 

[incarnate]

Well I think from what we saw in the WWW we can safely assume that paratroopers are bad enough as it is if the enemy garrisons the area they will get mopped up quickly. Landings such as the ones during DDay were the paratroopers are relieved in a matter of about 48hours are still possible but it's not like you can just conquer a country with paratroopers under normal circumstances. And if your opponent is dumb enough not to have any garrisons then so be it.

 

[kalauer]

And agreed on the second paragraph. If you're not using paratroops as a prelude to an invasion, you probably should reconsider using the paratroops in the first place.

+1. They should be useless if not supported and thus always a part of a larger Operation. But why should they ned a Special mechanic e.g. putting them off-map (or did i misread OP?)?

Question for me is: Should paratroopers be able to defeat a infantry Division when dropped on them or being attacked shortly after being dropped (give them 3:1 superiority if you will). If not, they seem useless.

Another Point: If one Division of Inf can capture a province, why should one Division of paratroopers be unable to do so?