Paratroopers with 0 ORG after drop

[dilk]

Hi,
after playing hundreds of hours, I used paratroopers for the first time.
Before airdrop they had about 89 ORG
But now I mentioned, that they got 0 ORG after airdrop behind enemy lines. So they get immediately crashed.

How do you guys use your paratroopers?
Only to capture undefended islands?

 

[kettyo]

They should have some minimal org after dropping. Enough to hold out against a weak garrison unit for some time. But you should try to drop them on empty provinces and let them regain org (bonuses help here) before going to take an objective.

 

[dilk]

But that is ridiculous.
It was part of the job of paratroopers to attack or hold an objective after they got their feet on the ground.

Think of the capture of the belgian forts.

 

[safe-keeper]

Makes total sense. After their drop, they will be scattered and disorganised, and vulnerable to enemy attack while they regroup, tend injuries, find their air dropped supplies, help their comrades down from trees and barn roofs, etc. Also it's a balance feature, I suppose.

Also, in Hearts of Iron 4, divisions regain org ridiculously quickly anyhow, so it's an even smaller problem.

I haven't used paras much in 4 yet, but in 3 I used them to capture victory points far behind enemy lines, predominately when invading Poland. Of course, the paratroopers then had to actually hold these objectives until the rest of my forces could force the Poles to surrender, so oftentimes I would end up losing the paratroopers, but done right it's absolutely a viable strategy.

I imagine they could also seize bottle necks behind enemy lines to deny them supplies, or seize strongpoints like forts or mountains that would be easier for them to hold, to tie up enemy troops.

 

[amalric de g.]

But that is ridiculous.
It was part of the job of paratroopers to attack or hold an objective after they got their feet on the ground.

Think of the capture of the belgian forts.

The germans landed with gliders on the belgian forts. Thats a different story.

 

[kettyo]

@safe-keeper

Actually most powerful in paras is that since there's no defense in depth battleplan you can drop them right behind an enemy frontline and in the same time assault them frontally by armour. This way they can't retreat and will surrender en masse.

 

[a_sophist]

Hi,
after playing hundreds of hours, I used paratroopers for the first time.
Before airdrop they had about 89 ORG
But now I mentioned, that they got 0 ORG after airdrop behind enemy lines. So they get immediately crashed.

How do you guys use your paratroopers?
Only to capture undefended islands?

Because I don't find it clear from this post, did you drop them on an empty province and they were then attacked, or did you drop them on a province with a unit on it. The latter case is answered above, and if the former they should have held for a couple days, unless your template is awful, there were air support issues, or they happened to land next to decent divisions. Unless you land on or take a supply giving province paras will always face supply issues for obvious reasons, which contributes to the org problem.

 

[billcorr]

Makes total sense. After their drop, they will be scattered and disorganised, and vulnerable to enemy attack while they regroup, tend injuries, find their air dropped supplies, help their comrades down from trees and barn roofs, etc.

Good explanation.

But, the reason I hit the "respectfully disagree" is due the nature of the game: Grand Strategy Game.

The explanation for 0 organization cited in this post's quote apply to the tactical aspects of combat.

In a Grand Strategy Game, issues such as tibula-fibula fractures, static line injuries, drop zone scatter, (and for the Germans, locating their drop containers, e.g. Mischlast Abwurfbehälter 250 (Kg)) are all minutia.

For the reasons cited in the quote, a bit of an organization penalty is appropriate. But going to 0 percent organization in a Grand Strategy Game for tactical reasons confuses the two distinct wargame styles.

 

[GPounda]

But that is ridiculous.
It was part of the job of paratroopers to attack or hold an objective after they got their feet on the ground.

Think of the capture of the belgian forts.

In theory yes, but also look at the chaos of the D-Day jumps. . . scattered, disorganized, injuries/fatalities, it took the US 82nd and 101st three days to achieve the objectives they were supposed to have achieved prior to the landings. . .

 

[Louella]

There's 2 things in play here:

Paratroopers receive a penalty to organisation for combat in the first N hours of combat (it's in one of the defines)

In addition, if the transport aircraft were hit by flak or damaged by other enemy action, then, the paratroopers receive a much greater penalty to organisation.


edit: aha, found the defines I was thinking of:

    PARACHUTE_FAILED_EQUIPMENT_DIV = 50.0,           -- When the transport plane was shot down, we drop unit with almost NONE equipment
    PARACHUTE_FAILED_MANPOWER_DIV = 100.0,           -- When the transport plane was shot down, we drop unit with almost NONE manpower
    PARACHUTE_FAILED_STR_DIV = 10.0,               -- When the transport plane was shot down, we drop unit with almost NONE strenght
    PARACHUTE_DISRUPTED_EQUIPMENT_DIV = 1.5,       -- When the transport plane was hit, we drop unit with reduced equipment. Penalty is higher as more hits was received (and AA guns was in the state).
    PARACHUTE_DISRUPTED_MANPOWER_DIV = 1.9,           -- When the transport plane was hit, we drop unit with reduced manpower. Penalty is higher as more hits was received (and AA guns was in the state).
    PARACHUTE_DISRUPTED_STR_DIV = 2.2,               -- When the transport plane was hit, we drop unit with reduced strength. Penalty is higher as more hits was received (and AA guns was in the state).
    PARACHUTE_PENALTY_RANDOMNESS = 0.1,               -- Random factor for str,manpower,eq penalties.
    PARACHUTE_DISRUPTED_AA_PENALTY = 1,            -- How much the Air defence in the state (from AA buildings level * air_defence) is scaled to affect overall disruption (equipment,manpower,str).
    PARACHUTE_COMPLETE_ORG = 0.1,                   -- Organisation value (in %) after unit being dropped, regardless if failed, disrupted, or successful.
    PARACHUTE_ORG_REGAIN_PENALTY_DURATION = 120,   -- penalty in org regain after being parachuted. Value is in hours.
    PARACHUTE_ORG_REGAIN_PENALTY_MULT = -0.8,       -- penalty to org regain after being parachuted.

So paratroopers always land with only 10% of their normal organisation value, and have a penalty to organisation regain for 120 hours. 5 days. Hmm.

 

[kettyo]

But going to 0 percent organization in a Grand Strategy Game for tactical reasons confuses the two distinct wargame styles.

It's certainly not 0 percent, rather something like 5-10 percent. Oftentimes i drop them accidentally on top of some relocated division and they can hold out until other paras from neighbouring provinces with some regained org help them out. Relocation also cuts org so it evens the field. If you drop them on top of entrenched divisions with full org it's obviously a quick loss.

 

[billcorr]

It's certainly not 0 percent, rather something like 5-10 percent. Oftentimes i drop them accidentally on top of some relocated division and they can hold out until other paras from neighbouring provinces with some regained org help them out. Relocation also cuts org so it evens the field. If you drop them on top of entrenched divisions with full org it's obviously a quick loss.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Paratroopers receive a penalty to organisation for combat in the first N hours of combat (it's in one of the defines)

It appears that I too eagerly jumped into the conversation without full knowledge of the game mechanics. (aka "shooting my mouth off" )

The game-play representation of paradrops is making more and more sense.

 

[HaruhiFollower]

A division-sized unit is fairly disorganised in the first few hours after a drop and can't function well on an operational level, so the organisation loss (with quick recovery) is reasonable. Unfortunately, this doesn't interact well with the fact, that enemy divisions can react instantaneously. If there were some delay between the attack order and actual start of the battle going to 0 org would have some sense, but with the current system, it, unfortunately, isn't.

 

[kettyo]

The game-play representation of paradrops is making more and more sense.

I think the lack of defense in depth is a bigger issue than paradrop mechanics since as it is now the AI can be totally obliterated by a paratroopers+armour concerted assault.

 

[Sourlol]

Paratroopers are nearly useless due to 0 org (or near 0 as the case may be).

The effort that goes into making them seems to not really ever pay off.

I mean how do you use them for DDay? drop them on the same tile as the amphib? making for a larger combat width? Drop them a tile behind? allowing for reinforcements to take longer but pretty much securing your paras doom?

I'd prefer to use them as elite infantry, but I dont even know if they have better stats.

I am interested in WtT for those competitive MP types. How will that go about executing Ddays?

 

[kettyo]

I mean how do you use them for DDay? drop them on the same tile as the amphib? making for a larger combat width?

As far as i know paras did not secure any bigger areas of land (represented by provinces in HOI) during D-day themselves. They were used for supportive roles like sabotage and spying. So arguably it can be modelled by increasing combat width.

 

[a_sophist]

Paratroopers are nearly useless due to 0 org (or near 0 as the case may be).

The effort that goes into making them seems to not really ever pay off.

I think they're utterly useless for their historical purpose, but in game they are a cheesy way to quickly capitulate smaller countries because the AI doesn't always garrison VPs and an alternative to naval invasions to get a port for countries with a weak navy.

 

[Moishe Greenblatt]

Paratroopers are nearly useless due to 0 org (or near 0 as the case may be).

The effort that goes into making them seems to not really ever pay off.

I mean how do you use them for DDay? drop them on the same tile as the amphib? making for a larger combat width? Drop them a tile behind? allowing for reinforcements to take longer but pretty much securing your paras doom?

I'd prefer to use them as elite infantry, but I dont even know if they have better stats.

I am interested in WtT for those competitive MP types. How will that go about executing Ddays?

Paratroopers can decisively win stalemates if the enemy has no defense in depth. Prime example is the Suez. I cannot tell you how many times in multiplayer that the Axis has broken through level 10 forts and South African Heavy Tanks on El Alemein because the Axis paratroops behind the forces guarding El Alemein which cuts them off from supply and allows them to be crushed. So many times has a stale mate on the Eastern Front been broken by a paratrooper drop on Soviet forces either creating a massive encirclement and annihilating huge numbers of troops or, very nearly threatening a massive encirclement which forces the Soviet player to pull back his troops to a safer position. Also Paratroopers are great just to give your enemy a micro hassle and 10 width paratroopers are very cheap to use and likely lose. The opportunity cost by forcing more annoying micro on the enemy can be massive even if you don't get an encirclement or capitulation with the paratroopers.

 

[Sourlol]

... Prime example is the Suez. I cannot tell you how many times in multiplayer that the Axis has broken through level 10 forts and South African Heavy Tanks on El Alemein because the Axis paratroops behind the forces guarding El Alemein which cuts them off from supply and allows them to be crushed. .

Dont you need air superiority to paradrop? I mean how is the Axis getting air superiority in N. Africa?! Last I checked there is a airport on the suez side of El Alamein, in addition to Malta and Cyprus---and its the RAF, I mean they should have planes everywhere.

 

[Louella]

I'm not sure if paratroopers are represented all that well ingame, for what they achieved historically.

If we look at the airborne landings for D-Day, and Operation Market Garden, then, the scale of those operations is much smaller than what can be done ingame - to transport the troops for Market Garden, 3 airborne divisions, took so much of the air transport capacity of the Allies, that they couldn't do it in one lift.

For D-Day, if we look at the map scale of the provinces, the paratroopers weren't dropping in the province south of the beach, they were landing on the beach province. But if you do that ingame - dropping onto entrenched enemy units, then the paratroopers will generally fare poorly.
For Market Garden, the action takes place over what looks like just 3 provinces on the map. And again, it doesn't really represent the airborne divisions landing in fields some distance from the defended objectives.

I'm also not sure about how much organisation they lose paradropping, and the penalty to organisation regain. It makes them very easy to defeat for 5 days, which is longer than a lot of airborne operations lasted historically. And their higher organisation compared to normal infantry, makes them superior at holding a defensive position after a period of not having parachuted. Which might help represent the 101st Airborne's defence of Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge, but does also seem a bit counter-intuitive at times.

Dont you need air superiority to paradrop?

Yes, 70% air superiority, in all air zones from the source airfield to the drop zone.