paratroopers - special forces or just waste of ressources?

[Maizel]

Without air resupply the usefulness of paratroopers will be very limited.

 

[kviiri]

Will the amount of planes vary based on the total weight of the division being paradropped?

 

[Sleight of Hand]

@podcat

It may be an idea to have paratroopers as 'worth it' even if you don't drop, given the reputation and specialist status enjoyed by US Airborne, Fallschirmjaeger, the Red Devils, etc. Obviously they should be expensive (you don't want either the player or AI in a position to spam paratrooper divisions) but as part of the 'Special Forces' bracket (along with Marines and Mountaineers) they should certainly be worth investing in. At the very least, they should have better morale/organization in whichever way you represent that in HoI IV -- i.e. be tougher to 'break' compared with normal infantry divisions.

And an out-of-supply bonus (or smaller malus, rather) as well, obviously.

 

[Mannstien]

because each represent enough planes to carry an entire division.

paras are probably not really worth it if you dont plan to paradrop. Of the different special forces their only advantage over the rest is a little less supply use, but they have 25% higher training time as well.
if you can afford it using mountineers can be pretty good even outside mountains as they have better stats than regular infantry, and better terrain bonuses, but like all special forces take a lot longer to train and require more equipment. Same goes for marines if you plan to fight where their bonuses matter.
The general tradeoff is something like 40-50% more expensive with 30% more training time for 30% better breakthrough, terrain bonuses and better organization and morale

IMHO Para's are worthless with the expense of the Transports until Air Resupply is sorted out and added unless you really have nothing else to spend your resources or factories on. Marines I can definitely see use for, the Mountaineers maybe but I'm hard pressed to spend anything on them because I see infantry moving through provinces if well equipped with no problems in the streams. But I'll save my final comments a few weeks after release

Edit: Perhaps worthless is a bad term, but just to expensive for many countries including some majors to build the transports for them to be effective accept special circumstances which may not always present themselves so a very high risk to pursue.

 

[kviiri]

the Mountaineers maybe but I'm hard pressed to spend anything on them because I see infantry moving through provinces if well equipped with no problems in the streams.

I don't think it's the movement that's the main deal with mountaineers, it's the combat advantages they get against everything else in the mountains. I'm pretty sure Dan would've have had harder time against the well-entrenched Swiss if he hadn't brought mountaineers in.

Mountaineers actually seem to have a pretty good advantage to me. Whereas a Marine's or Paratrooper's bonus is inherently transient, the Mountaineer can stay on a fortified mountain pretty much indefinitely - ideal for borders/location defense. And his main vulnerability otherwise, the tank, cannot scale mountains well, nor do CAS planes perform well with rugged terrain obscuring their view. Mountaineers defending mountains seem to have the strongest capacity for static defense of all units in the game.

 

[Sir Garnet]

Paratroopers were pretty exploitable in HoI III, if that is your thing. You could easily snipe victory points of minor nations for cheap wins. I don't know if that will work in HoI IV though.

Anyway, in the game the best thing to do is probably to drop them into a city or port, get the urban defensive bonus and rush guys into the harbor without needing a real amphibious landing.

Paradrops were so exploitable in HOI3 to cut off retreating troops or snipe cities or ports and kill ships that house rules were necessary to make it more realistic. Dropping into a city or sizable town is asking for disaster - you need a defensible drop zone suitable for landing, assembly, and proceeding to the objective.

They have very high org but less HP then infantry and they are significant more expensive although much cheaper to field then tanks. They are not worth it if you don't plan to paradrop them . . . . Paratroopers are very useful for encirclement as you can drop them behind and box in enemy division, this also make them useful for cutting of enemy supply lines, especially if the enemy leave very easy to defend terrain behind them in which the paratroopers can dig in.

Agreed. They are best used to seize and hold positions that cut off enemy supply and reinforcements to an adjoining objective, which helps the army or marines take that objective and then link up to relieve the paratroops. With the local supply factors in HOI4, they might even be able to hold out longer for the relief force.

In HOI3 they have very high ORG and need to be at nearly full org to be eligible to make a drop, which fairly represents the careful preparation involved for each air assault operation and means that putting them in normal ground combat pretty much rules out their use in paradrops unless pulled out of the line for a considerable time. So they get ready in position and range for a potential drop and wait for the right target and time. I expect HOI4 would follow a similar approach tied in with the battle planner for paradrops.

To fit Italy's budget, I had 3 small divisions of paratroops of 2-3 rgts each rather than 2 larger ones. These were intended to hold position, and only attack from their position when it was time for the encirclement bonus.

Probably not necessary to mention that man-portable AT weapons and special forces equipment were prioritized. My Italy had only 3 paratroop divisions (that did get chewed up at times), 3+ marines, but two corps-worth of mountain troops so that helped justify the costs the way that HOI3 HPP research was grouped. These special forces worked well together against the mountainous islands and coastlines of the Med.

The price of special forces and airpower was shelving new construction of large warships and any serious armor development, anti-tank capability being a better fit for an leg+motorized infantry army. In HOI4, it would be nice to capture some of those well-armored French and British models in pockets that can be sewn shut by paradrops on defensible terrain behind river lines. Worth a try, anyway.

 

[JerkyJerry]

Grounded Paratroops
After suffering heavy losses during the airborne assault and capture of Crete, Hitler never again committed his airborne troops to large-scale operations and they were instead used as ground infantry.

I read this on a WWII trivia site. 100% true or not?

 

[podcat]

IMHO Para's are worthless with the expense of the Transports until Air Resupply is sorted out and added unless you really have nothing else to spend your resources or factories on

nah, you pretty much always want them in combination with naval invasions if you can. both to attack the defenders of a port both from land side as well as invading, or if they arent too strong to harass in this way. Remember that with the way supply works you can not reinforce any lost equipment or manpower without a connection back to capital, but if you take victory points you will not just die instantly and can actually fight for a while and link up with landing forces, if they were successful (or you are both screwed). The other use is that it forces the enemy to garrison areas that would otherwise by vunerable to paradops. sort of a fleet-in-being thing.

as i said tho. if you can afford the equipment (remember that if you fight in a limited area the limit to number of troops is not what you can afford, but what the combat width is like, so better troops can be worth their weight in gold even if replacing your whole force would be utterly stupid).

After suffering heavy losses during the airborne assault and capture of Crete, Hitler never again committed his airborne troops to large-scale operations and they were instead used as ground infantry.

I read this on a WWII trivia site. 100% true or not?

afaik most german paras were used in this way, but I'm not an expert

 

[Mannstien]

I don't think it's the movement that's the main deal with mountaineers, it's the combat advantages they get against everything else in the mountains. I'm pretty sure Dan would've have had harder time against the well-entrenched Swiss if he hadn't brought mountaineers in.

Mountaineers actually seem to have a pretty good advantage to me. Whereas a Marine's or Paratrooper's bonus is inherently transient, the Mountaineer can stay on a fortified mountain pretty much indefinitely - ideal for borders/location defense. And his main vulnerability otherwise, the tank, cannot scale mountains well, nor do CAS planes perform well with rugged terrain obscuring their view. Mountaineers defending mountains seem to have the strongest capacity for static defense of all units in the game.

Indeed, when I looked at some of the newer streams it seemed they've made a lot of adjustments to the terrain modifiers and now that I think about it other than researching them their isn't any additional special equipment required unlike Paratroopers requiring transports Mountaineers need probably a bit more training? but the same equipment.

 

[podcat]

Mountaineers need probably a bit more training? but the same equipment.

all special forces need more training. it ranges from 30-60% more. they will use 40% more equipment, but same equipment as infantry

 

[Mannstien]

nah, you pretty much always want them in combination with naval invasions if you can. both to attack the defenders of a port both from land side as well as invading, or if they arent too strong to harass in this way. Remember that with the way supply works you can not reinforce any lost equipment or manpower without a connection back to capital, but if you take victory points you will not just die instantly and can actually fight for a while and link up with landing forces, if they were successful (or you are both screwed). The other use is that it forces the enemy to garrison areas that would otherwise by vunerable to paradops. sort of a fleet-in-being thing.

Indeed, not worthless but the cost to produce the transports I think are going to way heavily into my decisions on researching and producing them depending on the nation but I think I need to wait to get some playtime in to make a good judgement about this, it's one hell of a hard balancing decision with the Airdrop resupply and I can understand that. Can't wait

I so want to do a massive drop and invasion of Gibraltar and Malta as Italy with Marines and Para's but that Italian industry build up will need to be well planned and executed I think

 

[Bonedeadmozart]

all special forces need more training. it ranges from 30-60% more. they will use 40% more equipment, but same equipment as infantry

So that would mean the training time is increased by 30%-60%?

 

[Mannstien]

So that would mean the training time is increased by 30%-60%?

I think regular infantry is the base, you can still deploy them early without completing the training but they require more hence you cannot deploy them until they reach I think it's 20% of their total, not the base infantry total.

 

[kviiri]

So that would mean the training time is increased by 30%-60%?

Wiki lists Paratroops' training time as 150, Marines and Mountaineers as 120, Infantry as 90. So paratroops take 66.66...% longer to train than infantry and marines/mountaineers 33.33...% longer. I think you can still deploy them without complete training as with any unit.

 

[Mannstien]

afaik most german paras were used in this way, but I'm not an expert

They were, but mainly after Crete were they not used in airdrops anymore, instead they tended to be more of an elite force in that they were still trained to higher standards and in general put up some of the toughest fights especially in the Normandy campaign as regular infantry but retaining their paratrooper designations.

 

[evilcat]

How good is mountaineer in the flat terrain?
How good are marines in regular fight?
What is the point of paratroopers who dont jump?

It may depend on front and period if you are already ahead and just need time and organization they could be a waste.
But they have a potencial if you can jump them behing big rivers. Or behind coast port so you in combination with marines (sea and air invasion)

 

[Mannstien]

How good is mountaineer in the flat terrain?
How good are marines in regular fight?
What is the point of paratroopers who dont jump?

It may depend on front and period if you are already ahead and just need time and organization they could be a waste.
But they have a potencial if you can jump them behing big rivers. Or behind coast port so you in combination with marines (sea and air invasion)

My initial plans with Italy was to develop Marines for the North Afrikan theatre in regards to using them as a form of encirclement landing behind and cutting off British forces while my mainline held instead of Paratroopers. So many possibilities as I've tried most in HOI3 BICE I can't wait to try some of the same in HOI4.

 

[adam-tuck]

Another thing I thought about paratroopers is, do they plan and execute air drops faster than naval invasions? If the take too long your enemy will pull back not be in the same position. They should deploy by air faster that by navy correct?

 

[amalric de g.]

Grounded Paratroops
After suffering heavy losses during the airborne assault and capture of Crete, Hitler never again committed his airborne troops to large-scale operations and they were instead used as ground infantry.

I read this on a WWII trivia site. 100% true or not?

Thats true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallschirmjäger

 

[Sotahullu]

Another thing I thought about paratroopers is, do they plan and execute air drops faster than naval invasions? If the take too long your enemy will pull back not be in the same position. They should deploy by air faster that by navy correct?

I think you needed planning time of 30 days or around that and you need to have atleast 75% air superiority.