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Pathfinder12

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I recently ran into a thread discussing the roles of coastal forts and land forts and how they would behave against different attacks. I then realized that the emergence of airborne troops in many ways made land forts obsolete and that during Nazigermans' blitz against Belgium and Netherlands airborne troops were used in great effect to incapacitate huge and formidable fortresses, thinking in particular of the Battle of Fort Eben-Emael (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Eben-Emael).

I wish to question the fact that land forts give the same penalties to airborne troops (if they do) as they do to land based troops. A fort is surely only useful if the enemy is attacking in front of it from the outside, but becomes useless if you attack from above and from within as paratroopers would.

My suggestion is that perhaps the attack penalty for airborne troops should be reduced by a significant percentage when they paradrop (or glidefly, which game mechanic wise is the same) onto the same province as the fort. It would also make sense for them to be able to do a large amount of damage to the fort if they paradrop onto it. This would simulate the use of paratroopers during WW2 where they mostly served to sabotage infrastructure and fortresses and cleared the way for the main forces.

This would be balanced out by the fact that they are light infantry and thus can't be on par with regular infantry since they have less equipment and do less damage (and also have less supplies stored), they also are limited in their number since the production of transports are required and will be a severe limit (not sure how this is handled in HOI4, from what I have seen in the streams there are no transport planes to produce). The only way for paratroopers to compensate for this is by having a higher training level, the latest equipment and their innate maneuverability. Perhaps their movement speed should be less reduced in difficult terrain considering the fact that they don't have a lot of heavy equipment? Or perhaps they should be more heavily penalized since they have to carry a lot of their equipment on their back or on light trucks? Either way there are plenty of penalties for paratroopers to balance their fort-destroying capabilities.

That's my opinion, I am curious to see what other players (and developers) have to say!
 
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Denkt

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The fort effect are reduced from each direction you attack the province from. So:
  • Attacking the province from only one direction is very bad
  • Try instead to find a way to attack it from more the one direction
  • Paradroping add one attack direction
  • So attacking the province from 2 directions + paradroping is the same as attacking from 3 directions
 

Hippob4

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I like the idea a lot. Paratroopers being used to neutralize forts from above rather than a frontal assault. That would give them a new role since paratroopers generally are either used as frontline units or when paradropped to cause chaos behind enemy lines. Rarely do I ever drop them on provinces or cities or forts with a large enough concentration of enemy forces.

Maybe the idea is that Paratroopers would be also armed with satchel charges and just other bunker busting equipment that could wreck the fort level easier than a frontal attack.

But like Denkt said, attacking from multiple sides already works. I do think Paratroopers should get a Fort-Attack buff though :)
 
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Wyrm

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What played the greatest role in the Battle of Fort Eben-Emael was the element of surprise. It's one of those stunts that can probably only be pulled off once. But paratroopers dropping on an unprepared enemy should have lots of surprise-related bonuses, be they in fortresses or elsewhere.
 
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Pathfinder12

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What played the greatest role in the Battle of Fort Eben-Emael was the element of surprise. It's one of those stunts that can probably only be pulled off once. But paratroopers dropping on an unprepared enemy should have lots of surprise-related bonuses, be they in fortresses or elsewhere.
Yes as with any attack surprise can be a crucial ally. I think it is also worth noting that paratroopers where used in all successful invasions, whether from land or sea, where they defeated or incapacitated land or coastal fortifications (Belgium, Normandy and Poland(?)) or to disrupt reinforcements and supplies (Sicily, Netherlands and Normandy again).

In many ways I feel like paratroopers and their role is insufficiently emphasized in HOI3 and I fear it will remain so in HOI4.

Perhaps I will be able to add a large amount of attack damage to infrastructure and fortresses by mod, but I fear that damage is done via Hard attack and it would be unbalanced to increase that too much. I fear that decreasing the penalty for attacking fortresses if you approach them airborne and increasing paratroopers damage on infrastructure and forts will be difficult by mod if the game is too hard coded.
 
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Kolaris

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What played the greatest role in the Battle of Fort Eben-Emael was the element of surprise. It's one of those stunts that can probably only be pulled off once. But paratroopers dropping on an unprepared enemy should have lots of surprise-related bonuses, be they in fortresses or elsewhere.

Also the planning bonuses. There was a lot of preparation given to that airborne operation. They went as far as building a huge replica of the fortress for the Fallschirmjäger to practice on.
 
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Wyrm

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I think that with the changes to how naval invasions will work and the greater emphasis on planning, paratroopers will become near-essential for most large-scale operations as a temporary incapacitating force that can hold vital ground until reinforced by regular troops.
 

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Also the planning bonuses. There was a lot of preparation given to that airborne operation. They went as far as building a huge replica of the fortress for the Fallschirmjäger to practice on.
Exactly, this is one of the many things that excites me about HOI4, the planning bonus. Having elite trained paratroopers with an engineering company (or some other support company that helps with forts) with high planning bonus drop on top of a fort, along with heavy elite panzer divisions with appropriate fort-destroyer support companies from multiple angles, also with high planning could devastate even a very fortified defence with entrenched troops. Especially if supported by CAS and bombers bombing buildings (hopefully including forts).

It would be really appropriate if they added a saboteur/commando support company with extra attack against forts. That would make my day.
 
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Sotahullu

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The thing is that paratroopers are not that almighty and it requires plenty of planning to pull off airborne assault. Crete, Sicily and Holland (Market Garden) are good examples of how not to execute airborne operations.

So I can imagine that in game there is huge minuses in doing air drops unprepared.
 
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Pathfinder12

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The thing is that paratroopers are not that almighty and it requires plenty of planning to pull off airborne assault. Crete, Sicily and Holland (Market Garden) are good examples of how not to execute airborne operations.

So I can imagine that in game there is huge minuses in doing air drops unprepared.
Certainly that is why I really like that they include the planning mechanics which I think will simulate that rather well. The battle of Fort Eben-Emael as mentioned earlier was planned for about 6 months :p with a real sized rehearsal in early spring 1940 before it was executed. A well planned (high planning bonus), well supported (regulars coming in to help and air support) and well commanded (a good commander to counter the enemy commanders tactics ) air drop could probably be devastating, even against fortified and entrenched troops, if both outnumbered and outflanked.

Either way, it will be a ton of fun experimenting.
 

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The thing is that paratroopers are not that almighty and it requires plenty of planning to pull off airborne assault. Crete, Sicily and Holland (Market Garden) are good examples of how not to execute airborne operations.

So I can imagine that in game there is huge minuses in doing air drops unprepared.
A good example for that would be the airborne assault on scotland in the WWW streams when daniel (germany) was fighting Johan (UK) and his paratroopers ran out of supply and got crushed by Johans tanks and motorized divisions and lost half a million men.
 

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The allied war planners knew Eben-Emael did not have enough troops assigned to defend it, they assigned a division to hold it, that division was as i understand it, not at the fortress at the time of the attack, as they expected to have enough warning of an attack to redeploy before the enemy began to engage the fortress.

ingame, undefended/underdefended fortresses will be captured very easily, which is inline with the historical precedent.
 

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I think solution here is simple,,,, Special forces like Paratroopers or Marines should have and option to plan longer and thus get a much higher planning bonus. Also it would be nice to be able to have some kind of Commando brigade that is very expensive but gives you buffs in attacking specific targets like (ports , forts ect.) and are increasing your planning bonus for whole division.
 

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You are confusing the division level management of Hearts of Iron with the batallion level commando raid, which was the Battle of Eben-Emael. Individual raids like that might succeed in small local operation, like the capture of one fort. Don't forget that in Hearts of Iron, province level forts would not be represented by this one fort, but all the forts in the province combined.

Division level airborne operations like The battle of Crete have a competely different purpose then raids like this. These are currently represented in Hearts of Iron, commando raids are not. Adding these would require a different game mechanic, and adding them to paratrooper divisions would be misplaced.