Paradox's Statements About Cities: Skylines 2

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I paid for a functional product with promises of up to 10 years of support. I didn't pay for a company that's far richer than me to "learn a lesson". I'm not hating on the product or the company, we know the state of the game and I have patience, but I certainly would not want to see it become abandonware so soon after I parted with my money. BioWare and Mass Effect Andromeda spring to mind: "We're sorry you are upset that we did a bad job, no more updates for you." - I'm unlikely to trust them with a purchase again after that.
Cutting you off completely is only one way they can handle it, yes it's easy to assume that's the only thing I meant, but it's not. They can offer refunds, or even credit for a new game.
 
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I paid for a functional product with promises of up to 10 years of support. I didn't pay for a company that's far richer than me to "learn a lesson".
No you did not. You paid for the right to play the game for as long as CO/Paradox is willing to make it available, in whatever state they see fit. If they decided to release no more fixes, that is entirely up to them. If they wanted to, they could announce that they are removing the game from Steam in 30 days from the announcement. They won't, but according to the agreement between Paradox and yourself (assuming you bought it through Steam) they could. If you want 10 years of support you will likely need people to pay a lot more money. What you intended your payment to mean is irrelevant.
 
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They had too much time, too much resources and too many occasions to actually catch up
I am not so sure about the resources. CO does not have a lot of devs. Sure, if we look at the weekly statements, a bunch of them work on console support and stuff that is completely unrelated to fixing/improving the base game.
Overall the studio is small, even if CO would put all their resources into fixing the game, I am not sure if this would be enough.

Paradox will focus on maximum profit... it is their job. What choices does CO have to reach this goal after even the biggest YouTubers bashing the game?

On the technical side, the focus is clearly not on fixing the stuff. CO still believes that aiming for consoles and DLCs is the right path. The CEO said, if you do not like it, go somewhere else... Personally, I and many others here think this path is a huge mistake, but we will see what will happen in 5 years.

Most likely history repeats... a different studio/publisher will bring out a different city builder and CO is part of the history.
It sucks... I wish we will see a different outcome but with every week without a solid patch, it becomes less and less likely.
 
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Message to CO and Paradox: Hire more people to fix the game. If you want to make big money on the console version, the current status of the game (not performance, I mean playability, options and features of the game itself) it's not the best way to bring new console players to the game).
No, message is "We want to not have our stock value tank, so we say things to the investors that make it sound like it wasn't our decision to release CS2 too early".
 
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I suggest you read the classic "the mythical man month".
Bringing in more people in times of trouble can make tings worse. Training new team members, while they get familiar with the code base to the point where they can productively fix bugs might take so much time from existing team members, that the game could be fixed quicker if the exiting team just works on it.

People like to cite this and think it applies to every case. It definitely does not. Just because someone wrote it down doesn't make it true.
 
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Paradox can say whatever it wants. I have removed all Paradox wish listed games from Steam I had, and they will get no new business from me in any way, shape or form until CS2 has been patched up. I also tell others to do the same whenever I get a chance. I know I won't make much of an impact to their overall bottom line, but that is what I can do, so I do.
Have a good one.
 
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I suggest you assess the situation at hand instead of quoting a book written 50 years ago about a different situation. They don't even have someone to peruse the bug reports, for god's sake! As for the developpers, there are bugs they're obviously unable to fix, like the assets import, so some outsourced talent could very much help.
The fundamentals haven't changed though. You cannot throw a newbie into a highly complex environment like a large software project and simply expect them to be immediately productive. Unless a problem is highly specific to their prior experience, it will take any new person months to get fully up to speed. That's as true today as when the book was written.
 
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The fundamentals haven't changed though. You cannot throw a newbie into a highly complex environment like a large software project and simply expect them to be immediately productive. Unless a problem is highly specific to their prior experience, it will take any new person months to get fully up to speed. That's as true today as when the book was written.
Generalizing is always a simplistic way of thinking. A lot of tasks at hand are not so complex, just long and repetitive, like the LODs they "forgot" to add to the assets they bought on catalog, or, again, perusing the bug forum and test/organize the reports. As for writing code, they're not going anywhere, anyway. There is a wealth of experimented developers who would be up to speed in weeks, not months. This is a Unity game project from a small studio in 2024, not a huge IBM project in the 70's.
 
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I am not so sure about the resources. CO does not have a lot of devs. Sure, if we look at the weekly statements, a bunch of them work on console support and stuff that is completely unrelated to fixing/improving the base game.
Overall the studio is small, even if CO would put all their resources into fixing the game, I am not sure if this would be enough.

Paradox will focus on maximum profit... it is their job. What choices does CO have to reach this goal after even the biggest YouTubers bashing the game?

On the technical side, the focus is clearly not on fixing the stuff. CO still believes that aiming for consoles and DLCs is the right path. The CEO said, if you do not like it, go somewhere else... Personally, I and many others here think this path is a huge mistake, but we will see what will happen in 5 years.

Most likely history repeats... a different studio/publisher will bring out a different city builder and CO is part of the history.
It sucks... I wish we will see a different outcome but with every week without a solid patch, it becomes less and less likely.
THE big issue for console support is performance (which if they improve it, benefits all platforms)
Part of the performance issue is has to do with pathing queries (which if they fix/improve this, it will be benefitial for all platforms)
So, no dev is specifically working on console support from what I gather.
They are generally fixing the game. They might have a few devs on the editor/modding tools though. They recently mentioned that the editor/modding tools would also be a priority (next to getting the game working, with good performance, on consoles... and PC)

And yes, the studio is small (24 people working on the game), so it's not a UBISoft AAAA+ (yes, quadruple A Plus, lol )

And kinda sad no one really sees how the relationships between publishers (not just in the games industry, but movies, books, you name it) and the people who actually make stuff work...
Anywho, here in the Netherlands, we have 2 publishers who are the only one's that make schoolbooks. AND they practically decide what our students are taught...
That is how powerfull publishers are.
 
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THE big issue for console support is performance (which if they improve it, benefits all platforms)
Part of the performance issue is has to do with pathing queries (which if they fix/improve this, it will be benefitial for all platforms)
So, no dev is specifically working on console support from what I gather.
They are generally fixing the game. They might have a few devs on the editor/modding tools though. They recently mentioned that the editor/modding tools would also be a priority (next to getting the game working, with good performance, on consoles... and PC)

And yes, the studio is small (24 people working on the game), so it's not a UBISoft AAAA+ (yes, quadruple A Plus, lol )

And kinda sad no one really sees how the relationships between publishers (not just in the games industry, but movies, books, you name it) and the people who actually make stuff work...
Anywho, here in the Netherlands, we have 2 publishers who are the only one's that make schoolbooks. AND they practically decide what our students are taught...
That is how powerfull publishers are.
There are game developers in the genre who are much smaller (e.g. the developers of High Rise City) and still manage to create a reasonable game that works, and often with completely different engines like the Unreal Engine, which are not as developer-friendly as Unity engine.
The problem is just how much time and passion you invest in making a game and testing it for its actual functionality in terms of gameplay and system stability before it even comes to a full release at full price.
Many things in Cities Skylines 2 just don't seem well thought out, are simply missing or seem hastily slapped together.
The only positive thing I can highlight is the level of detail and the design of the assets in the game.
I've now invested around 400 hours in the game and I'm just tired of the errors or performance drops that can occur (slow simulation speed from a certain number of inhabitants, the traffic AI, logic errors in terms of economy and land value, sudden crashes to the desktop, etc.). still have time and nerves to put into it.
I recently played Sim City 4 again for nostalgia reasons and was shocked that even the game has little things in it, like animations when there's a fire somewhere and you order the emergency services there, then the fire engine stops there and you can even see firefighters Extinguish fire with water in a game that is over 20 years old.
With Cities Skylines 2 I have the feeling, if you take away the performance problems, that this game doesn't even work three quarters as well as it should. If I were to take the performance problems into account, I think the game isn't even a half or to two-thirds complete and I don't think I'm using a system that's too bad (i9 13900K, 64 GB DDR5 Ram, RTX 4090, Samsung N.v.m.e 980 Pro m.2 SSD 2TB).
I mean, in the game I sometimes feel like I'm running Cinnebench r23 instead of actually playing a game.
 
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Many things in Cities Skylines 2 just don't seem well thought out, are simply missing or seem hastily slapped together.
I have the impression that it is more a matter of too high amibitions rather than quickly slapping something together. CS1 on the other hand was probably a game which was somewhat quickly slapped together.

Fun fact: My first post on the paradox forums where regarding a CS1 bug which messed up the graphics for users who had an integrated GPU in addition to a dedicated one. I had to use a workaround with steam lauch options for the problem for a very long time after release. CS1 was far from the flawless release some people in this community seems to think, despite having much simpler game mechanics.
 
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I have the impression that it is more a matter of too high amibitions rather than quickly slapping something together. CS1 on the other hand was probably a game which was somewhat quickly slapped together.

Fun fact: My first post on the paradox forums where regarding a CS1 bug which messed up the graphics for users who had an integrated GPU in addition to a dedicated one. I had to use a workaround with steam lauch options for the problem for a very long time after release. CS1 was far from the flawless release some people in this community seems to think, despite having much simpler game mechanics.
I didn't compare CS1 with CS2 either.
The thing about CS1 is that this game simply benefited from the fact that Sim City (2013) was a complete failure. Exactly the same applies to the Cities XL series, which had good beginnings but also failed miserably.
Yes, I also had problems with CS1 at the beginning, but now it feels like it's not to the same extent as with CS 2 or I can't really remember it anymore, it's been over 8 years since it was released.
To be fair, you also have to say that over the years this game has had some very good mods that have significantly improved the gameplay, performance or appearance of the game, etc. and that was one of the reasons for me, for example, that I played it for so long if there were engine-related limits.
The problem is that CS2 now has to compete with its predecessors and with a few drawbacks it still looks very poor but of course it can change over months or years.
 
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it will take any new person months to get fully up to speed.

What are you talking about?

Even if that were true, which it's not, don't do it at all for a game they've said they're planning to support and update for the next decade?

The problem isn't just too few devs, other problems include devs that took on way more than they were capable of, and horrendous management from lower level, to upper, to ultimately the CEOs of both CO and Paradox.
 
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What are you talking about?

Even if that were true, which it's not, don't do it at all for a game they've said they're planning to support and update for the next decade?

The problem isn't just too few devs, other problems include devs that took on way more than they were capable of, and horrendous management from lower level, to upper, to ultimately the CEOs of both CO and Paradox.
It is true. Why do people with no experience in software development insist they know everything about it? New hires have to be trained in what's already there. The new hire necessarily goes through three productivity periods, one unproductive, one partially productive and one fully productive. That takes time and cannot be waved away by wishful thinking. In rare cases where a task is highly specific to their prior experience, a new hire can move into the second period. But even then time has to be spent repartitioning the teams' work flow so that the new hire has something to do. In a project with a tight deadline all this interference and extra bureaucracy will combine to make the project run even later than it did before the new hire was brought on board. And that's just the TL;DR version of why you can't just chuck extra people at a project.

"Some people have called the book the "bible of software engineering." I would agree with that in one respect: that is, everybody quotes it, some people read it, and a few people go by it." -- Fred Brooks, https://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2005/12/12/8363107/index.htm

PS: Anybody interested in learning from somebody with a clue might want to consider the applicability of what Brooks called the Second System Effect, in which "when a first system seems to be working well, designers turn their attention to a more elaborate second system, which is often bloated and grandiose and fails due to its over-ambitious design. In the meantime, the first system may also fail because it was abandoned and not continually refined." https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/second-system-syndrome
 
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No you did not. You paid for the right to play the game for as long as CO/Paradox is willing to make it available, in whatever state they see fit. If they decided to release no more fixes, that is entirely up to them. If they wanted to, they could announce that they are removing the game from Steam in 30 days from the announcement. They won't, but according to the agreement between Paradox and yourself (assuming you bought it through Steam) they could. If you want 10 years of support you will likely need people to pay a lot more money. What you intended your payment to mean is irrelevant.

Let me dissect this.

You paid for the right to play the game for as long as CO/Paradox is willing to make it available

No, I did not. I know what I paid for - I'm the one that spent my money. Your argument is like telling me that when I buy a car, I pay for it to work so long as the warranty is valid and after that, it's kaput. As a consumer, when I buy something, I have a general expectation of how long I expect it to last for or how much use to get out of it. That's what I pay for. I base this on the expectations set by the vendor (they stated 10 years support) and the reputation of the vendor (prior to the release, there was no reason to suspect it wouldn't be good).

What you intended your payment to mean is irrelevant.

It's actually not, because what CO does next is important to me as a consumer, and will affect future purchasing decisions. Failing to meet the expectations of customers is extremely damaging, as evidenced by the community reaction to this release and the fact that Paradox, as the publisher, acknowledges the failings in its reports. (Sources on this very forum.) It damages consumer confidence, so it's not just "my" intention behind the that matters, it's that of the customer base. Reasonably, I think most of the customer base expected a better quality release (so consumer confidence is already damaged) and expects CO to provide the support it has publicly committed (or risk further damage).

Please also note what I actually said:

I paid for a functional product with promises of up to 10 years of support.

That's what I paid for, in good faith.

It's funny how much people will "keyboard warrior" a post when the comment is irrelevant to them, though. My expectations shouldn't matter to you one bit, but you be you and expend your time to tell me how wrong I am about how I spend my money. :)
 
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What I remember from hearing Fredrik Wester in interviews long time ago is that he is a real gamer himself and plays all the games. So he has probably seen a few bugs himself.
 
No, I did not. I know what I paid for - I'm the one that spent my money. Your argument is like telling me that when I buy a car, I pay for it to work so long as the warranty is valid and after that, it's kaput. As a consumer, when I buy something
I would suggest reading the contract the next time you get a new car, otherwise you may end up just leasing a car instead of buying it...

It damages consumer confidence, so it's not just "my" intention behind the that matters, it's that of the customer base.
Sometimes it is more profitable to take the hit to consumer confidence. At the end of the day it is all about the money.

That's what I paid for, in good faith.
Ending support today would still be within "up to 10 years". That sentence sets an upper limit for how long you can expect the game to be supported, but it does not set a lower limit.

My expectations shouldn't matter to you one bit
It doesn't. Your real problem is that it doesn't really matter to CO and Paradox either when those expectations doesn't match the reality.

It's funny how much people will "keyboard warrior" a post when the comment is irrelevant to them, though. My expectations shouldn't matter to you one bit, but you be you and expend your time to tell me how wrong I am about how I spend my money. :)
If you don't want feedback on your statements you shouldn't make statements on an internet forum. I'm not telling you how to spend your money. I'm telling you the reality of the agreement you have entered into. If that upsets you, you should at the very least start reading such agreements before agreeing to them. You clearly do not.
 
Yeah, that'll do, I think.

The thread has wandered a bit too far from the original topic.
 
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