Paradox: will religion in Europe be fixed post 1.30? As it stands the concept is in many ways reduced to a joke

[Skyfus]

Not quite. If you chose to go Hussite you only need to be on the winning side of the Religious League to complete their third Hussite mission.

But does that enable Hussite emperors?

 

[BoomKidneyShot]

This is of course forgetting that Coptic provinces suffer from the same problem.

Perhaps the CoRs should focus on Catholic/Protestant/Reformed provinces, and convert non-Catholic/Protestant/Reformed Christian provinces at a slower pace?

 

[makaramus]

also, make it so that how often you get reform events related to how much CATHOLIC LAND you have compared to all other catholic lands combined
if you are 3 devolpment opm that is doing nothing you shouldnt be able to incrase desire by %1

 

[Meglok]

This is of course forgetting that Coptic provinces suffer from the same problem.

Perhaps the CoRs should focus on Catholic/Protestant/Reformed provinces, and convert non-Catholic/Protestant/Reformed Christian provinces at a slower pace?

Agree, as I said earlier CoRs should focus on the Catholic v Protestant v Reformed conflict and have a much much much lower chance of targeting other Christian and non-Christian religions.

I am not concerned about whose ox got gored when by each religion, or by replicating exactly everything that each religion may or may not have done to each other. What I am concerned about is balance and game play, which IMHO would be better off with the above change and by taking the effects of DotF caused by changes in 1.30.

 

[LastSalian]

Can someone explain what is the problem with Anglicanism? Being at 3 stability all the time is so good.

 

[Manwe_Sulimo]

Is the Orthodox conversion such a big problem? the CoR are quite far away form any Orthodox areas which should reduce the likelyhood of getting targeted and also slow down the reform progress. As it is the strongest Christian denomination from a gameplay perspective I also don't really see a problem from a gameplay perspective.

@Anglican: its boni are quite weak and situational if you compare it to the others which have more flexibility. The two options relating to consorts are an interesting flavor, but serve nearly no gameplay purpose, 2 are only for the economy which is not really the problem of England, so they are not that helpful. There are no military modifiers. Reformed and Protestant offer stronger aspects and more flexibility.
-> 3 stability all the time: you don't really need Anglican for that though, its normally quite easy to be at 3 stability most of the time if you raise it to +1 and then choose the right event options.
Finally, Anglican is isolated and therefore has problems with diplomacy (heretics to everyone) and you need to convert everything you conquer without any buff to conversion speed.

 

[Avian Overlord]

The Orthodox Communion, from the perspective of the Catholic Church historically, are heretics and schismatics.

They're still apostolic, that does make a difference.

 

[EarlKonrad]

This is of course forgetting that Coptic provinces suffer from the same problem.

Perhaps the CoRs should focus on Catholic/Protestant/Reformed provinces, and convert non-Catholic/Protestant/Reformed Christian provinces at a slower pace?

They already focus on Christian, Reformed and Protestant provinces. Only if there isn't any probince following one of these denominations in range that they start converting Orthodox and Coptics. I don't actually know how the CoRs interact with Hussite nor Anglicism.

The problem with converting those provinces at a slower pace is that that would slow the reformation down. Them converting Orthodox and Coptics is already incredibly rare and only happens if Poland/Lithuani becomes Protestant (Sweden is out of range of Russia so they can't really convert Russia's provinces).

Can someone explain what is the problem with Anglicanism? Being at 3 stability all the time is so good.

Compare Anglicism with any other Christian denomination and you will find that it is the only one to not give any sort of military bonus (a must if you want to play online) and it's bonuses aren't good. Anglicans can get a cash injection and Dev cost reduction. While Dev reduction is nice, it is far from necessary for an European nation (because you don't really need to Dev all that much).

Compare Anglicism with Catholicism which gives you many different temporary buffs that you can buy with PI, crusades and Curia Controller.

Compare this with Reformed which has some decent buffs that you can activate for a short period or permanently keep 1-2 active (not that hard to have 2 permanently on).

And Protestants get to chose 3 out of a miriad of buffs to fit their needs.

 

[redshirt4life]

There was a pro Florence, an anti Florence, and a neutral party in Constantinople. The important part is not how the Orthodox viewed Florence, but how the catholics viewed the Orthodox after Florence

You are right that I am more (entirely) focused on the Orthodox side. The opinion of the Catholics is something I didn't consider.

Anyway...Back to the orthodox.There were supporters, but the council was still ultimately rejected, espesially after the pope's promised crusade was outmaneuvered and slaughtered by the ottomans. Even the supporters were really just in it in hopes of repelling the massive invasion at their gates.

Constantinoople was being slowly choked out by a massive Ottoman force who was at their gates, and still they largely rejected the council decision. The direness of the situation really emphasizes how unpopular the Catholics were.

It was something that really impressed me. They knew the Ottomans would take the city at this time.

 

[fr-rein]

Is the Orthodox conversion such a big problem? the CoR are quite far away form any Orthodox areas which should reduce the likelyhood of getting targeted and also slow down the reform progress. As it is the strongest Christian denomination from a gameplay perspective I also don't really see a problem from a gameplay perspective.

There are a few issues with it (outside of common grievances with religious balances in EU4 and a tendency to add military buffs on religions since some point):

• Conceptual mistake and misunderstanding relationship between Catholics&Protestants on one side and Orthodox on another
• At some points it does make a difference and is very annoying
• While the idea of Reformation in Orthodoxy isn't fully outrageous, the issue is assuming that Orthodoxy would accept generic Reformed/Protestant faith like a regular Catholic land once those are converted
• To add to above, no unique events, disasters or any kind of context. No matter of your Patriarch Authority in EU4 as Orthodox state, you will get Reformation. No events or incentives to oppose it outside of aggressive projection of this fanatic Protestant cult (I dunno how else to call it in this context for Orthodoxy). Anything you do is irrelevant as Orthodox state. Same applies to Copts and others, but they are much rarer cases and are a part of this problem.
• Some especially shallow people think that Starovery were Russian/Orthodox Reformists/Protestants

And lastly, it just shows how little EU4 pays attention to East Europe and regional events. If you look at it, you only have a few events and disasters in Russia and Poland. No events that portray regional dynamics at all outside of Poland-Lithuania union which was in game way before EU4. In fact, the only regional events and flavor, Cossacks, stopped working. Since 1.30 Cossack Independence basically got broke and a whole DLC (which is very troubled) is useless if you try to play them or see them on the map. Just a button to recruit units now.

So hearing people excusing poor state of affairs in game in East Europe, including Orthodoxy-Protestant/Catholic dynamics, is awful as it is cementing the neglect to that region in game. Yet such people also argue how RotW is important and how Paradox devs should pay attention to it. Which wouldn't be too big of an issue (outside of double standards) if they also didn't argue that the awful religious dynamics in East Europe should be that way.

As for gameplay perspective - strength or balance isn't the issue. It's a matter of how you can interact with the neighbors. The dumbed down CoR mechanics on Orthodoxy and military buffs are reducing your interactions to only waging war, reducing your strategic choices in game. In fact, because of nagging and invasive nature of CoRs for Orthodox countries at some point, they have no choice but to try and wipe out them or embrace them.

 

[EarlKonrad]

Poe's Law

Yes, I'm aware.

 

[gaius valerius]

How is Protestanism a joke? Unless you already start as a major and cant become Orthodox its the best religion to choose in Europe.

I meant balance wise. The religions themselves are good enough for me, but the interplay between is skewered. Multiple sessions in the latest version just always delivered a Catholic ascendance in Europe & Anglicanism may as well not be a feature if you are not playing England yourself.

 

[gaius valerius]

- protestantism is an absolute joke

No. Protestantism is one of the best religions in the game and if your whole country just happens to flip protestant then there's no reason to not convert.

Agreed, what I meant is (see below) that in the latest run of games in this version of the game, I've seen no meaningful countries really turn. Overall though happy with where the spread is, generally in central Europe, but it just doesn't have a good effect on geopolitics.

- major non-catholic powers (orthodox aside) don't exist unless you the player form them and hence defender of the faiths means one big geopolitical stand-off

Not true, Sweden, France and England are all non-catholic reasonably often and are all usually major powers. The distinct lack of ai prussia should be fixed though. What comes to DotF it usually isn't a major power and is instead held by some shitty opm in the hre because of course it is so it's not such a big problem.

Don't see England turning anything in the latest run of games, and Scandinavia doesn't budge that much as well. Overall it is a full on catholic ascendancy. DotF is always being held by some major catholic power and since most of the meaningful states in Europe remain catholic it often blocks alliances working out. The HRE turning catholic most of the times also chokes out the possibility of protestant ascendance in that quarter.

Overall I do have the impression it is a catholic geopolitical fiesta, in itself again, not the worst thing given that states like France, Austria, Spain & Portugal all were officially catholic but the main drawback is that the DotF mechanic messes up with for example how wars turn out and the way behemoths like Spain & the Commonwealth love to police the map is just weird at times.

-> Debt spiral is still a thing...

Good. It adds flavor to the game.

How though? Honestly I would love for the game to recreate the issues say the Spanish Habsburgs faced with successive bankruptcies but as it stands all it does is cause alliances to lose meaning?

-> Colonisation is also reduced to a joke: long live the fact that roughly 2 nations will always colonize 75% of the Americas

Colonization has many problems but this is one that I've never seen. There are plenty of major colonizers and in my experience they split the Americas pretty evenly between each other. Also for what it's worth, spain did singlehandedly colonize almost all of the Americas historically. Minor colonizers like scotland, sweden and denmark are under-represented but that's hard to fix.

Every game in the last version just turns out with Portugal & Spain colonizing the New World. Mind you, England sometimes is a worthy contender and a few other nations attempt to pop up (France, some Scandinavian or Dutch ones) - however, it's all very one-sidedly in favour of the Iberian nations regardless (unless you the player step in).

But my main beef is not necessarily that the Iberians are so strong - which I agree has a historical precedent, but it is where they are being strong. Far too often they go for colonizing northern America which apart from Louisiana and offshoots from Mexico, makes no sense. Castilian Canada and there presence in Manhattan makes no sense since they can't steer trade to Sevilla. AI wise it makes no sense that they'd invest in creating nations that won't be steering trade to their nodes.

It also happens incredibly fast. And this is not realistic, not even for the Iberian nations. Historically the maps don't reveal that ownership was often claimed & nominal, the large yellow swath of Castilian turf in the Americas in reality being far more limited to the plains and river basins with much of the interior being 'ours but not really ours'.

Would it not be nicer if colonization was slower & made more meaningful in terms of commitment to certain areas? That it would make for more nations getting a chance to build up an empire of sorts that in a later stage of the game can result in actual colonial warfare and not WW I in the Americas by the 1600's.

 

[Quickmelty]

Is the Orthodox conversion such a big problem? the CoR are quite far away form any Orthodox areas which should reduce the likelyhood of getting targeted and also slow down the reform progress. As it is the strongest Christian denomination from a gameplay perspective I also don't really see a problem from a gameplay perspective.

@Anglican: its boni are quite weak and situational if you compare it to the others which have more flexibility. The two options relating to consorts are an interesting flavor, but serve nearly no gameplay purpose, 2 are only for the economy which is not really the problem of England, so they are not that helpful. There are no military modifiers. Reformed and Protestant offer stronger aspects and more flexibility.
-> 3 stability all the time: you don't really need Anglican for that though, its normally quite easy to be at 3 stability most of the time if you raise it to +1 and then choose the right event options.
Finally, Anglican is isolated and therefore has problems with diplomacy (heretics to everyone) and you need to convert everything you conquer without any buff to conversion speed.

Religious ideas (which are tbh vital as byzantium early with how resistant to conversion sunni is and the massive CB you get) cause some minor provinces to flip which can be annoying if the area's got revolt risk. Getting into europe however is a nightmare because you're constantly flipping provinces back and forth from them converting you.

 

[love sweden]

Anglicanism may as well not be a feature if you are not playing England yourself.

But that was the entire point of the DLC. Giving Britain exclusive things.