I am ok with most of those things BUT protestants spawning before 1490 is BS! 
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Paradox: will religion in Europe be fixed post 1.30? As it stands the concept is in many ways reduced to a joke
- Thread starter gaius valerius
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Why?
Because every religion, national idea and idea group should have +20% discipline +30% morale and +10% infantry combat ability to be viable? Otherwise they are broken?
How about we NERF religions to the point where only 3-4 out of the 20 have ANY combat bonuses? Whats the point of anything if EVERYTHING needs to have + discipline and coring cost reduction?
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To be fair, Anglicanism really should fire for Scotland if England refuses it. It's not fully historical but seeing England go "Nah" to Anglicanism can be sad, since you just know that means the end of a little variety in the game (also that England is gonna have less crises and that's annoying as anyone in West Europe).
The AI really needs a higher chance to take the CoR option for that event even if not added to Scotland. Anglicanism doesn't spread because the AI seems to be coded to NOT take that option and without a CoR to spread it, there's no chance of it spreading (same as for Hussite really, when's the last time you saw Bohemia do anything meaningful there without the player becoming Bohemia and going "Viva La Hussite" and doing an early Protestant reformation?)
The AI really needs a higher chance to take the CoR option for that event even if not added to Scotland. Anglicanism doesn't spread because the AI seems to be coded to NOT take that option and without a CoR to spread it, there's no chance of it spreading (same as for Hussite really, when's the last time you saw Bohemia do anything meaningful there without the player becoming Bohemia and going "Viva La Hussite" and doing an early Protestant reformation?)
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Wait; what? Protestantism is generally considered the best of the Christian religions.
Yes; Anglicanism is a joke, but it's so bad it seems borderline intended. Not to mention Protestantism covered Anglicanism anyway. The Protestant mechanic is literally called 'Church of X'... like... 'Church of England'. And one of the tenants is 'Legalized Divorces' and oh look at the main reason the Church of England was historically made... Anglicanism dosen't need a buff; it should be removed because there was no reason to add it to start with.
Have you never seen a Protestant Blobhemia?
Yes; cross-religion alliances happened, but they often needed quite significant circumstances to do so [Ie: Common rivals]. Just like France/Ottoman unholy alliance can happen. Also worth noting that a lot of the worst-case alliance scenarios rely either on Harsh stances in the Council of Trent; or the country in question being a Theocracy [which makes sense].
It's almost as if Orthodox religions don't have a special 'Tolerated Heretics' modifier to reflect their status!
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Protestant the best?
Not really the best of the those is reformed with one of the buffs and tolerance to heathens, with humanist you will never have unrest in europe.
The best relgion though in Europe is Orthodox, they have insane Manpower buffs and also missionary buffs, which are very strong and useful. Plus you have the icons, which you can actually use all the time with insane buffs compared to the catholic benefits you get.
Protestant is meh at best. Worst is Anglician and hussite, which they nerfed after their dev clash of bullshit, where humans behaved like ai.
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I would say 2 things need to be looked at;
DotF can be very game unbalancing towards smaller nations, requiring too many gyrations and too much time to work around. It was not that stifling prior to 1.30:
and second, CoRs should have a VERY reduced chance of affecting non Christian religions. The religious wars were all about catholic and non-catholic religions fighting for dominance. It wasn't about flipping Muslim or Orthodox provinces.
My two cents, for what it is worth.
DotF can be very game unbalancing towards smaller nations, requiring too many gyrations and too much time to work around. It was not that stifling prior to 1.30:
and second, CoRs should have a VERY reduced chance of affecting non Christian religions. The religious wars were all about catholic and non-catholic religions fighting for dominance. It wasn't about flipping Muslim or Orthodox provinces.
My two cents, for what it is worth.
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I'm not sure why people think Centers of Reformation targeting orthodox provinces is necessarily a problem. At least in Poland-Lithuania, Protestants absolutely did attempt to convert Orthodox people to Protestantism.
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And that utterly failed.
Just like in other Orthodox countries.
In particular, a major reason for failure was the fact that most Orthodox people were under Catholics and Muslims. They would not easily discern their religious identity and swap to Reformation faiths.
It is especially stupid because many reasons for Reformation, especially about indulgence and such, didn't apply to Orthodox church a priori.
It's as reasonable as Muslims becoming Protestant if we start doing loose associations.
But ok, it is not worst thing. Worst thing is that Orthodox provinces and states can't counteract Reformation effectively without invading HRE and destroying a few CoRs. Which is the most absurd part, EU4 team just neglected Orthodox faith in this matter.
P.S. many other Orthodox players said that it is stupid, but whatever, EU4 is being stupid on purpose
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The objectively second best religion for any European nation is Ibadi. That sweet, sweet 10% Goods Produced is too good to pass
Poe's Law
The Orthodox faith is largely resistant to protestants, because they were the original solution. Shortly before the final fall of Constantinople, Manuel II went to England. At this time the European powers like England were already weary of the power of the pope, and when the last Emperor made a case for Orthodoxy, they were very receptive to how the Orthodox operated without a pope. It was a bit too late for the Orthodox, but it helped sow the seeds of reform against the corruptable power of the pope.
This is all based on a translated first-hand document describing the visit of the Orthodox Emperor. I have in one of my books om Byzanrium. How much impact this actually had on reformation is debatable.
As for the Orthodox not being "heretics." The crusaders sacked Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade, and they began forcefully converting the Orthodox. Their oppression was so great many Orthodox welcomed the Ottomans over the Catholics. At least under the Muslims the church would survive.
Their relations weren't super great.
Historically, it didn't take much deviation to be considered a heretic among Catholics and Orthodox faiths. They liked to keep things straight. Like, consider the Iconoclasm in orthodox where a disagreement on the use of religious icons caused a major civil war.
This is all based on a translated first-hand document describing the visit of the Orthodox Emperor. I have in one of my books om Byzanrium. How much impact this actually had on reformation is debatable.
As for the Orthodox not being "heretics." The crusaders sacked Constantinople in the Fourth Crusade, and they began forcefully converting the Orthodox. Their oppression was so great many Orthodox welcomed the Ottomans over the Catholics. At least under the Muslims the church would survive.
Their relations weren't super great.
Historically, it didn't take much deviation to be considered a heretic among Catholics and Orthodox faiths. They liked to keep things straight. Like, consider the Iconoclasm in orthodox where a disagreement on the use of religious icons caused a major civil war.
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At least based on the article, enough people were converting for it to be concerning to Orthodox religious authorities.
The vast majority of Protestant (and especially Calvinist) theological disagreements with Catholicism apply equally well to Orthodoxy: the necessity of sacraments, a hierarchical priesthood, the authority of ecumenical councils, the authority of the Church Fathers, the veneration of saints, the veneration of icons, etc.
The importance of things like the sale of indulgences is vastly overestimated in the public consciousness. Luther's major motivation was his soteriology. His criticisms of the abuse of indulgences from his theology of salvation, not the other way around.
Neither can Catholic countries, though it is much more of a chore for Orthodox countries due to distance. And plenty of people have pointed out that the Centers of Reformation as depicted in game really don't accurately reflect how the Protestant Reformation worked in most places. Center of Reformation are dumb in how they operate is not something unique to their interactions with orthodoxy.
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Not really. Orthodox used a council of patriarchs to check the power of any one. They didn't have a single leader, espesially not one that wielded such immense political power at the time. Like you said, on top of this the orthodox didn't possess indulgences either.
While I agree their are differences, there is absent all of the major issues that led to conflict and resentment.
And in the biggest issue, the unchecked power of the pope, the protestants were "seeing the light" of something the Orthodox have been preaching for centuries. The pope had become a tool used by countries to further their agenda. Something we see roughly represented in the game when a national becomes the next pope.
While I agree their are differences, there is absent all of the major issues that led to conflict and resentment.
And in the biggest issue, the unchecked power of the pope, the protestants were "seeing the light" of something the Orthodox have been preaching for centuries. The pope had become a tool used by countries to further their agenda. Something we see roughly represented in the game when a national becomes the next pope.
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The council of Florence made them basically in communion so at game start they should not suffer full unrest and religious unity impact
Bumping because I'm doing a Bohemia run right now and think it's kinda stupid that Bohemia is incentivised by its unique events, missions and national ideas to become a Hussite HREmperor... which I can only do if I find a way to draw out the league war to 25 years, which I can't reliably manage since I can't lead either league. Also, Catholics should be able to "stoke zeal" for some sort of cost, or just any other way to religiously fortify your provinces so that you don't end up 0% religious unity with absolutely no way of fixing it until the local zeal modifier expires
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Because you neglect history of the region, yes.
The Orthodox faith was quite oppressed by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Orthodox Churches were stimulated to become Uniate, Catholic clergy receiving large support from state and converting Orthodox nobility and upper classes to the Catholicism by different means, Orthodox church was quite restricted and disrespected, Orthodox nobility and clergy were politically weak in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. In fact, it was so bad that quite a few churches were closed just to weaken the Orthodoxy or given away to Catholics or Uniates.
The supposed Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth's tolerance didn't spread to Orthodoxy. The game lies.
In fact, not just Protestants, but even Jews (infidels in eyes of Christians, not heresy) had better social standing that Orthodox clergy, which caused a massive resentment, hate and later massive massacres.
Yet your argument presents this opression, a logical child of Polish Counter-Reformation, as "people being attracted to Protestant ideas".
It's as absurd and illiterate as presenting Poles to be tolerant to Orthodoxy in EU4 timeframe.
@redshirt4life answered it, but I will just note that these issues were not socially or politically important to Orthodox population, especially in face of it being oppressed by other faiths. What is more important, Protestantism only started to be appealing much later and when Orthodox church in Rusisian Empire became a government job, causing resentments similar to those which were held against Catholicism. In XVII or even XVIII centuries it wasn't the case however.
Catholicism gets events, motivations, mechanics and buffs to fight it.
In Eastern Europe being affected by some German or Swedish CoR is a major annoyance as it makes no sense whatsover.
And that said, there are no events, mechanics or normal interactions between even Orthodox and Catholic faiths, although they were important and sometimes very bitter since start of the timeframe and especially during XVII centuries. Yet game fully neglects that.
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The council of Florence was a desperate attempt to win support from the catholics to save constantinople. It was rejected by the people of constantinople, who refused to concede in any way to the catholics, as they still resented the catholics over the fourth crusade. Many would welcome the Ottomans over recognizing the pope. The council decisions fell apart shortly after being announced.
The orthodox and catholic churches are not in communion even today.
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Not quite. If you chose to go Hussite you only need to be on the winning side of the Religious League to complete their third Hussite mission. The other option, jumping from Hussite to Protestant, seems rather strong. It is almost as if Hussite is meant to be a strong early game religion that you can either opt to keep it or go Protestant. Each path has its advantages and disadvantages.
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There was a pro Florence, an anti Florence, and a neutral party in Constantinople. The important part is not how the Orthodox viewed Florence, but how the catholics viewed the Orthodox after Florence
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A quick fix would make the -80 a decaying modifier.
Really every modifier should decay (perhaps not including marriages and alliances). It would allow for more fluid diplomacy.
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