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Incompetent

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Lithuania's religious woes

There's quite a small number of countries in this game where the state religion is not the overwhelming majority province religion in 1444. Indian Sultanates are Muslim states with Hindu provinces, Ottomans are about 50/50 Sunni/Other, and Timurids have a substantial number of Shiite provinces. You'll notice that all of these get huge religious unity bonuses in their NIs so that they can cope. Then there's Lithuania, which has a clear majority of Orthodox provinces, but starts Catholic and gets no religious unity bonus. So right from the start, Lithuania is whacked with internal problems due to low religious unity.

Unfortunately, Lithuania's solution to the problem in terms of NIs is the worst option in the long term: heretic tolerance. (The best is to have missionary bonuses so that you can eradicate the heretics - short-term pain for long-term gain.) Tolerance would be OK, except that the 'religious leaders concerned' events that kick in at +2 heretic tolerance turn it into a poisoned chalice. Basically, Lithuania's default heretic tolerance is +2 with 100 legitimacy and Catholic religion, and if it converts to any other sect of Christianity (highly likely under the circumstances), it's at +2 with 50+ legitimacy. So Lithuania's missionaries have to play constant whack-a-mole if they want to get the country's religious unity up. Lithuania will probably take Religious ideas for the missionaries, but it can't afford to complete the group, as Ecumenism basically removes any hope of getting heretic tolerance down to a safe level.

The consequences when Lithuania is under AI control are all too predictable: if it survives to the Reformation, it becomes a jumble of different sects of Christianity, with the government and three factions of zealots constantly fighting for control, regardless of which sect the government favours (and the AI will often make poor choices here, reacting to religious shifts rather than trying to control them).

Now to be fair, the other Lithuanian NIs are OK (although Lithuanian Hussars is rather let down by the fact that cavalry is already in steep decline compared to infantry by the time Lithuania unlocks it). But the religious problems trump any advantages they might have. Either the ideas need to change, or the way tolerance and religious unity work needs a big rethink. (This also applies to decisions like Declaration of Indulgence - striving for a tolerant society simply doesn't work unless you have a big religious unity bonus, and only certain countries can get such a bonus.)
 
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Xeorm

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You'll probably get a better response if you use a better tone, especially with legitimate problems. You're right, religious tolerance is an awful stat to have, as it doesn't mitigate many of the problems that it should like religious unity, and if you get too much of it the conversion event causes problems.
 

Xara

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There are several national decisions that decrease heretic tolerance.

Also, you're ignoring Lithuania's -2 revolt risk NI later down the line.
 

Incompetent

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There are several national decisions that decrease heretic tolerance.

Also, you're ignoring Lithuania's -2 revolt risk NI later down the line.

The -RR national idea is nice, but it's not as good as having provinces of the right religion. I don't know if the AI picks the right religious decisions here, as there are clearly some 'wrong' ones (e.g. decisions that increase global revolt risk, or Declaration of Indulgence).
 

Pilot00

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The -RR national idea is nice, but it's not as good as having provinces of the right religion. I don't know if the AI picks the right religious decisions here, as there are clearly some 'wrong' ones (e.g. decisions that increase global revolt risk, or Declaration of Indulgence).

Dont have my books at the moment, but isnt it how it was supposed to be from a history stand point?
Also I dont believe the way to go is: Give me a problem and the tool to fix it, we are supposed to find our own solutions to the problems in this game right?
Though I agree with you other countries have it a bit more easy.
 

grommile

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Is there a mechanic I do not know about? How does heretic tolerance cause more heretic conversions?
There are events triggered by high tolerance of heretics that cause provinces to change to a heretic religion.
 

Lakedaimon

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Wasn't this the historic situation in lithuania though? I have to admit I'm not an expert but what little I did read did clearly mention the issues arosing from tension between the catholic ruling class and the orthodox peasants in lithuania. Lithuania can be a powerhouse in the region but it is a fragile one, don't see any problem with that.
 

Novacat

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Lithuania does have some of the worst NIs in the game, even Asian countries overall tend to have better NIs.

The -RR national idea is nice, but it's not as good as having provinces of the right religion. I don't know if the AI picks the right religious decisions here, as there are clearly some 'wrong' ones (e.g. decisions that increase global revolt risk, or Declaration of Indulgence).

Declaration of Indulgence is pretty good if paired with some -Heretic tolerance decisions. Your essentially trading 5% Stability cost for +2% Missionary Strength and +1 Heretic Tolerance (which gives you enough heretic tolerance to remove the heretic penalties, but not enough to trigger heresy events)
 

diceyy

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This is what I was hoping they would change from eu3 when it came to religion. Tolerance is pretty much never a decent thing to aim for instead of converting.
 

illapa

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You do realize that ALL of Lithuania's other ideas are great right? They get amazing leader bonuses, a tech bonus, a huge national revolt risk bonus, and decent money/stability bonuses. Every nation has that one national idea that no one likes. So what that the AI is terrible at playing them. The Ai is also terrible at playing the Timurids. Also Lithuania's cavalry is also second only to Poland's.
 

Novacat

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You do realize that ALL of Lithuania's other ideas are great right? They get amazing leader bonuses, a tech bonus, a huge national revolt risk bonus, and decent money/stability bonuses. Every nation has that one national idea that no one likes. So what that the AI is terrible at playing them. The Ai is also terrible at playing the Timurids. Also Lithuania's cavalry is also second only to Poland's.

They are pretty terrible. -10% stab is nothing, +10% national tax is a joke, +20% Cavalry combat ability is amusing considering the Polish get +33%, and +10% Discipline on top of that. Leader Manuver/Leader Shock are also a bit mediocre.

The only good bonuses Lithuania gets is -5% Tech cost, +10% Production efficiency, and +20% Manpower recovery, and even then they are not that good. Russia gets the same production efficiency bonus and MUCH more manpower and tech cost.

Also Lithuania's cavalry is also second only to Poland's.

Which is 100% useless because cavalry is shit. Even if it wasnt useless, Sweden and Brandenburg get just as good cavalry and much much better infantry and artillery.
 

Novacat

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Comradebot

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You could always let the Orthodox guys win and convert. :cool:

(And then you can boost your Patriarch Authority up to convert the Catholic and any conquered Sunni provinces!)
 

Dakilla TM

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You could always let the Orthodox guys win and convert. :cool:

(And then you can boost your Patriarch Authority up to convert the Catholic and any conquered Sunni provinces!)

Even if you do that, the event "the patriarch is becoming worried" or "the patriarch is losing power" event shows up, and that orthodox province becomes catholic or protestant. Even if you go Sunni, you'll see shiite pop up in provinces, mainly because of the tolerance for heretics, which is legitimacy, religious ideas, and the Lithuanian NI. If you passed Indulgences, then say goodbye to religious peace, because your missionaries will work 24/7 on converting.

Is that fun? No, not at all. Don't forget the chance of religious rebels and higher stability costs due to disunity in religion.
 
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