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qijiang_ok

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Since navy is basically useless in this game, why don't we let the army sail in the sea directly without recruiting ships? Just like the way of Civilization V, the army can turn into navy automatically whenever in the sea. As Byzantine emperor, it is tedious every time when I assemble the armies of the whole country.

EDIT: Maybe we can use the concept of convoy like in HOI4.
 
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Captain Frakas

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Navy is not useless: it allow you to sail in the sea ;)
 
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Sunspawn

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But you can always sail in the sea whenever you want. You can always hire mercenary ships on the seaside.
Try doing that with a landlocked 20k army.
 
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DukeDayve

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Because being able to transport armies (especially large ones) over the sea is a privilege that has to be earned. It's expensive (you seen the cost of raised ships?) and to achieve that ability you have to be a large kingdom/empire with a decent bit of coastline.

Rome 2 allows anybody and everybody to just sail their armies in to the sea at no extra cost. So does Attila. What happens? We get absolutely ridiculous scenarios like landlocked barbarian tribes, who live landlocked north of Hungary, who have no knowledge of boats or sailing, whose ancestors have no knowledge of boats or sailing, who would see a sailing boat and think it was some kind of giant container for storing grain, or perhaps for bathing in, and would need to be TOLD it's for sailing in water...

And those tribes just march to the coast, climb in to magic boats that instantly materialize out of thin air, cost no time or money to make, and are sailed expertly by men who inexplicably have no knowledge of sailing, and they sail all over the world raiding and looting at will.

And it's fu***** ridiculous, mate.

However I do agree that playing as the Byzantines (for example) is tedious when you have to constantly raise army, raise boats, click army, click embark, then click where the ships need to assemble, then when they're all assembled click army, merge army, click boats, merge boats, click merged army, embark on merged boats, then send them to their destination. It's really really tedious. It gets worse when you raise an army of 301 men but the province you raised them in only had 3 boats and you can't possibly squeeze that 1 man in the boats, so that means none of the men get to go on a boat and you have to bring in a navy from another province to get them on the boats.

We don't need to remove ships entirely to fix this however, just add a button that automatically raises both army and ships from a province and puts the army on the ships.
 
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Sunspawn

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If you have 20k, you must already have some vassal ships. And you must can afford the mercenary ships of Venice or Genoa.
What part of LANDLOCKED do you fail to comprehend?
 
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Sirrobert1

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However I do agree that playing as the Byzantines (for example) is tedious when you have to constantly raise army, raise boats, click army, click embark, then click where the ships need to assemble, then when they're all assembled click army, merge army, click boats, merge boats, click merged army, embark on merged boats, then send them to their destination. It's really really tedious. It gets worse when you raise an army of 301 men but the province you raised them in only had 3 boats and you can't possibly squeeze that 1 man in the boats, so that means none of the men get to go on a boat and you have to bring in a navy from another province to get them on the boats.

We don't need to remove ships entirely to fix this however, just add a button that automatically raises both army and ships from a province and puts the army on the ships.
The hotkeys are great for that though.
G to merge, V to board ships. Saves loads of time.
 
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mudcrabmerchant

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As long as we had to ensure that we had enough ships, a la the HoI4 convoy system, I would actually strongly prefer automated transport.
 
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Fishman786

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What about raiding? There's not really any need for troop transport ships, as the OP said there could just be a convoy system where you have a limit on how many units you can move at once, but for raiding there's no good way around needing ships.
 

mudcrabmerchant

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What about raiding? There's not really any need for troop transport ships, as the OP said there could just be a convoy system where you have a limit on how many units you can move at once, but for raiding there's no good way around needing ships.

You could just have the money from coastal raiding be added directly to your treasury, perhaps with a limit attached to the army to make up for not being able to attach a limit via the fleet (and either have it all split if you split the army, or just prevent raiders from splitting if that's too hard).
 

Fishman786

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You could just have the money from coastal raiding be added directly to your treasury, perhaps with a limit attached to the army to make up for not being able to attach a limit via the fleet (and either have it all split if you split the army, or just prevent raiders from splitting if that's too hard).
That alters the gameplay though. If the loot limit is on the ships then you can move a full fleet back home and replace it with an empty one, whereas if the limit is on the army you wouldn't be able to do that. And it seems too complicated to devise such a system when having actual naval units is fairly simple.

Fleets are also useful for recon too.
 

Sirrobert1

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or just prevent raiders from splitting if that's too hard).
Right, great idea. Instead of a mechanic that is a little tedious, let's just remove entire strategy options from the game.
And how are you going to calculate how much you have to pay for those non existing ships that are laying in wait for your raiders? And if my raiders lose a few thousand units, would that also magically remove a few ships? Because that doesn't happen now
 
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thevmag

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I just tested this. Took 1,000 locals from around town: 5/10 in heavy armour, 3/10 on horses, 2/10 given crude spears and farming tools. Drove them to the coast and unloaded them at the deep part. While the light infantry were able to mostly swim back to shore, the vast majority of my levies did not prove sea-capable at all. Maybe the attrition rate at sea is too high, but it appears to be WAD.
 
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mudcrabmerchant

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That alters the gameplay though. If the loot limit is on the ships then you can move a full fleet back home and replace it with an empty one, whereas if the limit is on the army you wouldn't be able to do that. And it seems too complicated to devise such a system when having actual naval units is fairly simple.

Fleets are also useful for recon too.

Well, it seems kind of cheesy to have a bunch of viking raiders tell their ships to go home, leaving them stranded, just so they can collect more loot on one voyage. Yes, the game abstracts things and we can't use realism as a valid argument, but I don't see a reason why the current mechanics absolutely shouldn't be changed.

Same with fleets being used for recon - that's actually bad, from a mechanics PoV, because it lets you scout with literally zero risk, and no cost beyond the ship upkeep.

Right, great idea. Instead of a mechanic that is a little tedious, let's just remove entire strategy options from the game.
And how are you going to calculate how much you have to pay for those non existing ships that are laying in wait for your raiders? And if my raiders lose a few thousand units, would that also magically remove a few ships? Because that doesn't happen now

It doesn't make sense to pay upkeep for longships laid up on the beach during a raid anyway.

If you lose warriors on a viking raid, you also lose mariners, so it makes sense that you may not be able to take as many ships back.

Not being able to split up would, actually be an unequivocal step backwards, but I don't think it would be that big of a deal.