Paradox, why are you ignoring Belgrade?

[lolada]

Lol don't cry I'm not even vouching for Orthodox Bosnia

I'm just teasing a bit - i don't think PI is ignoring Serbia, you even got the achievement. There are so many countries that don't have the achievement for example or were not changed in ages.

Nobody is questioning the importance of Belgrade i guess - if the capital was changed sometimes after 1444 than PI could add an event to set it up properly when the time is right. But thats the topic for suggestion forum then.

 

[Trin Tragula]

The problem here is that Belgrade wasnt the actual capital of Serbia in 1444. It's also far too small to make an own province (we even held of on syrmia for a long time due to this concern, Belgrade would be even smaller).
It's there as the capital in later start dates though. I could maybe see an event to switch the capital and name of the smederevo province in the right circumstances but unless the map is drastically enlarged (which is not very likely at this point) I don't think a separate Belgrade province is likely.

 

[Milan23]

The problem here is that Belgrade wasnt the actual capital of Serbia in 1444. It's also far too small to make an own province (we even held of on syrmia for a long time due to this concern, Belgrade would be even smaller).
It's there as the capital in later start dates though. I could maybe see an event to switch the capital and name of the smederevo province in the right circumstances but unless the map is drastically enlarged (which is not very likely at this point) I don't think a separate Belgrade province is likely.

Thanks for the response, fair enough i do realise its difficult in 1444 due to it being owned by Hungary but inhabited by Serbs but the surrounding land being Hungarian meaning that a seperate province is difficult and if the map is too small then i'll have to accept it . An event would be nice though, maybe if Serbia or Ottomans conquer Srem? Then the city could be incorporated in the Smederevo province and name changed ect. It was extremely important to the region at the time and some inclusion is necessary i feel. Thanks for the reply anyway

 

[Milan23]

I'm just teasing a bit - i don't think PI is ignoring Serbia, you even got the achievement. There are so many countries that don't have the achievement for example or were not changed in ages.

Nobody is questioning the importance of Belgrade i guess - if the capital was changed sometimes after 1444 than PI could add an event to set it up properly when the time is right. But thats the topic for suggestion forum then.

I know you were so was I . I dont think pdx are ignoring Serbia whatsoever in fact i was suprised by the attention it got in 1.19. Im Bosnian anyway, though a Serb, and would like Bosnia to get an achievement also and an event converting some of it to Sunni if the Ottos control which i might suggest in the suggestions forum at some point

 

[AbsintheRed]

The problem here is that Belgrade wasnt the actual capital of Serbia in 1444. It's also far too small to make an own province (we even held of on syrmia for a long time due to this concern, Belgrade would be even smaller).
It's there as the capital in later start dates though. I could maybe see an event to switch the capital and name of the smederevo province in the right circumstances but unless the map is drastically enlarged (which is not very likely at this point) I don't think a separate Belgrade province is likely.

The region was such an important fortified zone against the Ottomans, that it's current representation isn't enough IMO.
This is how those provinces could be handled, for both better gameplay and historic representation:

Ignore the other parts of the map, most of it is WIP.
Belgrade and Smederevo provinces should look something like this though. Both has serbian culture and are orthodox, and it's very important that both has forts.
Smeredervo is the capital city for Serbia in 1444. There could be a decision to move the capital to Belgrade if it's conquered by Serbia.
(notes: that the dynamic name for Belgrade is either Nándorfehérvár or Fehérvár for Hungary, the Smederevo province name might be Branicevo, and the Serbia province could be named something better, maybe Krusevac? Kragujevac?)

 

[Martynios]

And that would make Belgrade as big as London (est. 50.000 in 1500), Lisbon (55.000), bigger than Rome (38.000) and Vienna (45.000)... let alone trading cities such as Hamburg, Lubeck, Amsterdam...
I guess Beograd should be at least 30 development province than

I would like to irrelevantly note that Amsterdam wasn't a big city during the 15th century, it's ascent had to do with the Blockade of Antwerp.

 

[Kwami]

No Serbian nationalism is not the answer for everything, I'm not even from Serbia.

Really? Because in your "Fixing the Balkans" thread, you claim to be Serbian. "As a Serb it pains me to take away our precious sea but for historical accuracy and better representation of Venice's power in the Balkans it makes sense." I guess you could be Serbian, but not from Serbia. That probably doesn't change much, though.

 

[morlin]

Really? Because in your "Fixing the Balkans" thread, you claim to be Serbian. "As a Serb it pains me to take away our precious sea but for historical accuracy and better representation of Venice's power in the Balkans it makes sense." I guess you could be Serbian, but not from Serbia. That probably doesn't change much, though.

He said he was serb, not serbian. You cant be serbian and not be from serbia that makes no sense.

And for the rest of your rude post you edited out i'd refer to AbsintheRed's representation of the map which is much more accurate than the current and it neither adds nor removes provinces.

 

[Milan23]

Really? Because in your "Fixing the Balkans" thread, you claim to be Serbian. "As a Serb it pains me to take away our precious sea but for historical accuracy and better representation of Venice's power in the Balkans it makes sense." I guess you could be Serbian, but not from Serbia. That probably doesn't change much, though.

Exactly I'm a Serb but not from Serbia. So 'Serbian nationalism' isn't really at play here. As much as I love Serbia and the city of Belgrade this is much more about the representation of my region and people as well as Belgrade getting the representitation it deserves than nationalism. Probably shouldn't jump to silly conclusions that every thread about the Balkans is due to nationalism, this could argued about every thread about any country..

 

[AbsintheRed]

He said he was serb, not serbian. You cant be serbian and not be from serbia that makes no sense.

And for the rest of your rude post you edited out i'd refer to AbsintheRed's representation of the map which is much more accurate than the current and it neither adds nor removes provinces.

Thanks!
It's one extra province though: The big Serbia province pre 1.18 is now 3 provinces (Serbia/Krusevac, Belgrade, Smederevo/Branicevo), instead of the 2 in the current official map.

I also wanted to reply to his post, but just saw he edited that part out since.
I do think the borders are much better that way, some map examples:
(there are plenty of other evidence for this, not only maps, the exact Hungarian borders are fairly well researched/established during that time)

Spoiler: maps

These maps are all from the mid-15th century.
After the Crusade of Varna and until the end of the reign of Matthias Corvinus, the only border change near the southern borders of Hungary was around Jajca.
The area near Belgrade was at least a full-province size though, and under strict Hungarian control in that time.
After this the next step would be to adjust the northern-Bosnian area, it's also way too inaccurate.

EDIT: Do we have spoilers in this forum? Didn't want to flood the thread with images, but didn't find it yet.
Recently CivFanatics also switched to this forum, and I'm still a little confused about it, sry...
EDIT2: found it

 

[yerm]

Change the entire balkans to wasteland and never look back.

 

[Roki_09]

Im not that big fan of putting smaller provinces with even less development.
If paradox wants to increase total development of some Balkan provinces before Ottoman conquest then Im all for it.
Serbian provinces(especially) southern were not underdeveloped compared to western Europe, even if EU map will show differently.
Letter it went down with the Ottomans.

 

[Atlantians]

The problem here is that Belgrade wasnt the actual capital of Serbia in 1444. It's also far too small to make an own province (we even held of on syrmia for a long time due to this concern, Belgrade would be even smaller).
It's there as the capital in later start dates though. I could maybe see an event to switch the capital and name of the smederevo province in the right circumstances but unless the map is drastically enlarged (which is not very likely at this point) I don't think a separate Belgrade province is likely.

@Trin Tragula, more importantly, why is Manhattan not its own province?!!! Outrageous!

Also, you should make Washington Island in Door County Wisconsin its own province. It was very important to the economy of Lake Michigan in the late 19th century!

It was also home to a very prominent Swedish, Norwedish, and assorted Nordic populations.

 

[Lazio74]

The problem here is that Belgrade wasnt the actual capital of Serbia in 1444. It's also far too small to make an own province (we even held of on syrmia for a long time due to this concern, Belgrade would be even smaller).
It's there as the capital in later start dates though. I could maybe see an event to switch the capital and name of the smederevo province in the right circumstances but unless the map is drastically enlarged (which is not very likely at this point) I don't think a separate Belgrade province is likely.

I don't agree with you. It was considered far more important (christian defensive view) than any other right side forts on the Danube, because of the river crossings it defended, and because of the huge garrison (compared to other forts) able to be here.
Besides that I think there are two main problems here.

First one:
Map is not accurate.

Smederevo is definitely in the Branicevo province, and that way current Smederevo should be called Nándorfehérvár and given to Hungary or should be renamed something else if you really want that XVIII century borderline between provinces.

Second one:
"Historic owners and some important events of Nándorfehérvár"

circa 630-900 Avar Khagnate
900-1000 Bulgarian control
from that it was a small town with a fort mostly under Hungarian reign, first mentioned in sources as "BulgarianWhiteFort"(White Fort=Fehérvár=Beograd)
En route to the 3rd crusade Frederick of Barbarossa finds the town deserted
1284 Serbia first gets it as a marriage gift
1316 with Stjepan Dragutin's death control reverts back to Hungary
1403 In a Hungarian civil war Stjepan Lazarevic despot gets it for his help to Sigismund
1410s (till 1426) Sigismund brings Filippo Scolari to Nándorfehérvár to build a state of the art fortress.
1427 with Lazarevic's death, Sigismund in a new deal with Despot Brankovic acquires the control and it reverts back to Hungary
1440 1st unsuccesful siege by the Ottomans
1456 2nd unsuccesful siege by the Ottomans, the famous christian victory this time inhabitants and soldiers die by thousand to the aftermath: plague.
1460s Further Italian craftsmen arrive to upgrade the fortifications
1521 aug 29 The garrison finally fell to the Ottomans,
1688 sep 6 -1690 okt 8 Habsburg occupation
1717 aug 17 - 1739 sep 18 Habsburg annex, and create "crownland" on it governed by administrators coming from other parts of Habsburg realm, There territory exist under the name of Kingdom of Serbia
1739 Great Serb Migration * possible event *
1789 oct 8 - 1791 aug 4 Habsburg occupation
1806 jan 8 - 1813 oct ? Captured, held and after the Ottoman recapture suffered from revenge in the days of the First Serbian uprising
1815-17 In the second Serbian uprising, the fort itself was not taken, Ottoman garrison remained in there for another 30 years before finally leaving.

As you can see in the game's timeline Serbia held Beograd between 1717-1739 as a Habsburg puppet state, and between 1806-1813 as rebels and again this time as a "semi-indepedent" state from 1817.

 

[Searry]

Wow! One of these threads again. Let me guess, another "Byzantium" thread next?

 

[Atlantians]

Wow! One of these threads again. Let me guess, another "Byzantium" thread next?

 

[Lazio74]

I'm just teasing a bit - i don't think PI is ignoring Serbia, you even got the achievement. There are so many countries that don't have the achievement for example or were not changed in ages.

Nobody is questioning the importance of Belgrade i guess - if the capital was changed sometimes after 1444 than PI could add an event to set it up properly when the time is right. But thats the topic for suggestion forum then.

Bosnia was a state in rebellion in 1444. Even the pope's words were not enough the make truce between the two, that's why didn't participate in the Battle of Varna.

Stjepan Tomas Kotromanic (supported by Hungary) was a catholic, called himself Bosnian King.
Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca (supported by Ottomans) was orthodox, and rebelled against Stjepan Tomas called himself Herzog of Hum. (From that title which he gave to himself, comes the region name Herzegovina)

 

[Milan23]

@Trin Tragula, more importantly, why is Manhattan not its own province?!!! Outrageous!

Also, you should make Washington Island in Door County Wisconsin its own province. It was very important to the economy of Lake Michigan in the late 19th century!

It was also home to a very prominent Swedish, Norwedish, and assorted Nordic populations.

I recognise the sarcasm and I think that a massive fortress city populated by over 50,000 people, centre of trade for the region and which took 250,000 men to breach is more important than some uncolonised islands..

 

[DanubianCossak]

Indeed, Paradox.

Y u hate Belgrade!

 

[Sfan]

I must say I'm sincerely confused. I've read so many things about the Balkans that I don't even bother checking if the OP has a point or not. It seems there is at least a positive attitude and historical claims this time.
Sorry for trolling it.