Anyone who doubts Paradox's commitment and the pride the development team invests in its products need only look at Europa Universalis II, which got its last patch more than four years after its initial release.
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I might have bought your argument if experience had not shown me that PI makes the same programing mistakes in game after game.
For example, I noticed in another thread http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=460487 that Doomdark talks about improving AI actions in v1.4 that have been a continuous problem with all HOI games from HOI vanilla through HOI2 Doomsday/Arma; and are STILL (apparently) in HOI3 v1.3 as well. Furthermore, PI has a long history of issuing games that are initially unplayable until an emergency fix is published months later.
I am still a loyal player because the games are the most interesting strategy games I have found, and usually very worth playing AFTER patch 3.1. :rofl:
But one would think that issues players have complained about game after game and patch after patch would NOT recur in newer versions. IMO that's what bothers most people, the idea that after all the ruckus made about such problems in prior games the NEW one would finally WORK as advertised. Unfortunately, it never does.
Anyway, I still love the games, and as soon as I see 90% of my peers lauding HOI3 as a near-perfect product I'll buy it. Prolly sometime after patch 3.1 :wacko:
Than those standards and expectation should be lowered abit, both by us,and by developer.
If 1.4 fails than game should be rewrited in a sence of simplifieing some aspects.
Lets see what 1.4 will bring .
Yeah and? Starcraft/Broodwar still gets minor patches 12 years after its initial release. So do other blizzard games. And for all that time, the games have been running smoothly and bug-free (at least enough to allow multiplayer competition).
I'm definitely not a blizzard fanboy but its so remarkably foolish to imply that because paradox patches their games they are special. No.
Just look at facts : after HoI1, 2, 3, EU1, 2, 3, Victoria, CK... Paradox still can't release a game with a user-friendly interface (customizable keyboard shortcuts for instance) and which doesn't keep on lagging years after release. I still play HoI2 and it still slows down quite a bit when there are many units.
As always multiplayer is still nowhere near practical. Man a game like hoi3 could deliver so intense and thrilling multi games... it really is a shame paradox can't provide us with a decent online gaming experience.
Well i wouldnt say that Paradox did "Washing its Hands of HOI3". I am sure they will support this Game much much longer. Ok maybe not the Vanilla Game, but the next Stand-Alone Addon for it.
Well....to tell the truth...i would hope the Addon is no "stand-alone" Version anymore. As a loyal customer of Paradox Games, since nearly a decade, i am sometimes annoyed that every new Customer gets Addons and even complete packs for 10-15 Bucks...with all inside, even 7+ patches, while I (and all other Fans of the franchise) have to pay the full price, again and again. When the Addon would always need a full Version...or the Registered Owner of the Full Version would get a cheaper Addon, we would feel a bit better. A bit rewarded, to be a loyal Customer....that had the enthusiasm, to buy it with full price.
All else, leads sooner or later to the fact, that everyone waits next time....until the product gets mature....good enough to be fun to play. This would lead to ten-thousends of Fans that wait for a 9,99 complete pack....and cant participate in the first months/year betatesting of every Paradox Game, coming out.
IDK, if this is what Pdox wants to get.....i doubt its a good evolution for them. They end with less money in the long run, and much less die-hard fans that are willing to participate in the refining of every new game....and so have less-quality in all future Games. (Remember....it were allways the die-hard Grognards that helped to find out, most of the bugs in every game...and gave many ideas how to make the game better).
The reason why this thread here arised, is easy to understand. As everybody knew 1.4 would be the last patch.....and most of us seem not to be happy with what is fixed now...and what still open...still unfinished....still not working as desired.....still not fun to play. Sure there a Guys here that tell: "I love the Game, even now...and play it every day." I bet most of us, still wait, because our Level of Niveau is still not reached. The Quality is still not enough. As long as Major Nations sleep...or r close to sleep, as long as Russia is a cakewalk, as long as Diplomacy leads to such weird results.....
...nobody of the Grognards will play this game for fun. We all did only hands-off games, to see....if the Game is close for a fun match. For me, its not. I cant talk for others. Everybody has to decide this for himself.
Now after so much bad news and negative talk.....i have to tell some good news also: I tested yesterday Devildread´s ICE-Mod. Its still beta....and i did what he did for his last tests....copied RC11 over 1.3....and then his beta 1.4.10 patch over it....and used the ai_production_minister.lua from the RC11 over it.
That got me a really nice, and historic handsoff yesterday. I saw Germany conquer Poland, Denmark, Norway....then the BeNeLux Countries, and at last France. All in the exact historical time. Diplomatic System much better there...only historic members in the Axis. As AI Germany reached the gates of Moscow at 08.12.1941, and got stopped from the Russian AI...and even pushed a bit back in winter.....i was completly amazed. Ok some unhistoric good progress north of Moscow....the Germans reached until Archangelsk...and the Russians conquered Finland before....and Germany got it back in April 1942.
I was even more fascinated as UK did a Invasion alone in France in Beginning of 1942. But then....it got obvious that there must be a general issue, where one theater ends up with pretty much all the units while the others get almost nothing. While Germany holded back the Russian AI in the east.....the western Theater had nearly nothing to defend against the UK Invasion. And some 3 months later some 20-30 Divisions steamrolled France, BeNeLux and then Germany....while still 180 German Divisions on the eastern Front 2-2 provinces away to Moscow.
If this wrong "Theater Behaiviour" cant be repaired in the 1.4 final....then 1.4 wont be fun to play at all. Even with such competent Mods.
Well....to tell the truth...i would hope the Addon is no "stand-alone" Version anymore. As a loyal customer of Paradox Games, since nearly a decade, i am sometimes annoyed that every new Customer gets Addons and even complete packs for 10-15 Bucks...with all inside, even 7+ patches, while I (and all other Fans of the franchise) have to pay the full price, again and again. When the Addon would always need a full Version...or the Registered Owner of the Full Version would get a cheaper Addon, we would feel a bit better. A bit rewarded, to be a loyal Customer....that had the enthusiasm, to buy it with full price.
All else, leads sooner or later to the fact, that everyone waits next time....until the product gets mature....good enough to be fun to play. This would lead to ten-thousends of Fans that wait for a 9,99 complete pack....and cant participate in the first months/year betatesting of every Paradox Game, coming out.
IDK, if this is what Pdox wants to get.....i doubt its a good evolution for them. They end with less money in the long run, and much less die-hard fans that are willing to participate in the refining of every new game....and so have less-quality in all future Games. (Remember....it were allways the die-hard Grognards that helped to find out, most of the bugs in every game...and gave many ideas how to make the game better).
The reason why this thread here arised, is easy to understand. As everybody knew 1.4 would be the last patch.....and most of us seem not to be happy with what is fixed now...and what still open...still unfinished....still not working as desired.....still not fun to play. Sure there a Guys here that tell: "I love the Game, even now...and play it every day." I bet most of us, still wait, because our Level of Niveau is still not reached. The Quality is still not enough. As long as Major Nations sleep...or r close to sleep, as long as Russia is a cakewalk, as long as Diplomacy leads to such weird results.....
...nobody of the Grognards will play this game for fun. We all did only hands-off games, to see....if the Game is close for a fun match. For me, its not. I cant talk for others. Everybody has to decide this for himself.
Now after so much bad news and negative talk.....i have to tell some good news also: I tested yesterday Devildread´s ICE-Mod. Its still beta....and i did what he did for his last tests....copied RC11 over 1.3....and then his beta 1.4.10 patch over it....and used the ai_production_minister.lua from the RC11 over it.
That got me a really nice, and historic handsoff yesterday. I saw Germany conquer Poland, Denmark, Norway....then the BeNeLux Countries, and at last France. All in the exact historical time. Diplomatic System much better there...only historic members in the Axis. As AI Germany reached the gates of Moscow at 08.12.1941, and got stopped from the Russian AI...and even pushed a bit back in winter.....i was completly amazed. Ok some unhistoric good progress north of Moscow....the Germans reached until Archangelsk...and the Russians conquered Finland before....and Germany got it back in April 1942.
I was even more fascinated as UK did a Invasion alone in France in Beginning of 1942. But then....it got obvious that there must be a general issue, where one theater ends up with pretty much all the units while the others get almost nothing. While Germany holded back the Russian AI in the east.....the western Theater had nearly nothing to defend against the UK Invasion. And some 3 months later some 20-30 Divisions steamrolled France, BeNeLux and then Germany....while still 180 German Divisions on the eastern Front 2-2 provinces away to Moscow.
If this wrong "Theater Behaiviour" cant be repaired in the 1.4 final....then 1.4 wont be fun to play at all. Even with such competent Mods.
Very interesting post. I believe I feel similarly about 1.4 and expansions as you do. 1) I am willing to wait longer with some further delays to iron out any "minor" issues that we can, like theater force allocation. Supply, yes it will wait for an expansion, I completely accept/agree with that. Unfortunately, we do not know if Paradox had a deadline they had to meet for some "bigger picture" plan.
Also, 2) as I have never bought an expansion separate, do you mean that an expansion will also cost ~30 and will include the entire HOI3 original game? If so, then hmm, that does seem a bit strange.
Well, i remember the Addon for HoI2. --> Doomsday.
It was standalone and around 20.- (or was it 30 bugs?).
It was standalone and around 20.- (or was it 30 bugs?).
Freudian or intentional?
I bought EU3 "Complete" (quoted for obvious ironic reasons), and HOI2 Anthology previously, so no experience with all this opening-day madness.
Lets talk about AI...
There are numerous tests on how a player thinks the AI is designed well or not. I think it was in HALO(or UT) where the producers tested the AI with some beta-Testers. At first they gave the AI same HP as humans had, just to get complains about the freaking easy and stupid AI. Than they decided to increase the HP, just a bit, without changeing a single line of code, and voila the Testers said, wow what a nice AI its so good and statisfies me...
For a developer its not so easy to make a challangeing AI. But its easy to make a winning AI. Humans must be able to win more games against the AI than lose or the game aint fun for the players.
So what Paradox did is making a AI which doesn`t cheat and everybody is complaining (even i do).
For me its simple, however 1.4 is a great step its not enought. Naval AI needs improvement and therefore at least a 1.5 is needed. I can recall a sentence i read some mounths ago: "1.3 is the last patch for HOI3" guess who said that?!... Johan did it. And now we are here with eleven release candidates for 1.4. And guess what, people will not stop to complain after 1.4 is released. Its simple because they feel the AI is not smart enought!
And what will Paradox change? I bet nothing because with all the fixes done in 1.4 i think a better AI is out of scope for a patch. So maybe just make it cheat so everybody is statisfied.
There are numerous tests on how a player thinks the AI is designed well or not. I think it was in HALO(or UT) where the producers tested the AI with some beta-Testers. At first they gave the AI same HP as humans had, just to get complains about the freaking easy and stupid AI. Than they decided to increase the HP, just a bit, without changeing a single line of code, and voila the Testers said, wow what a nice AI its so good and statisfies me...
For a developer its not so easy to make a challangeing AI. But its easy to make a winning AI. Humans must be able to win more games against the AI than lose or the game aint fun for the players.
So what Paradox did is making a AI which doesn`t cheat and everybody is complaining (even i do).
For me its simple, however 1.4 is a great step its not enought. Naval AI needs improvement and therefore at least a 1.5 is needed. I can recall a sentence i read some mounths ago: "1.3 is the last patch for HOI3" guess who said that?!... Johan did it. And now we are here with eleven release candidates for 1.4. And guess what, people will not stop to complain after 1.4 is released. Its simple because they feel the AI is not smart enought!
And what will Paradox change? I bet nothing because with all the fixes done in 1.4 i think a better AI is out of scope for a patch. So maybe just make it cheat so everybody is statisfied.
Paradox games require a really good megamod to make them addictive.
HoI 2 and now HoI 3 take a long time to see this come to fruition.
I was hoping for the Vicki series to be hard mode on the economic and military sides that Paradox seem to lack. HoI is one dimensional and EU is painfully plain. The paradox presentation of games is bar none the best out there for this type of game. Unfortunately the game play winds up being shallow and it seems until about 1+ year and at least one expansion and mega mod later until the games have matured properly.
If games aren't really good until 2 years after release why should people buy right away? I'm going to buy Vicki 2 straight up since it seems the likelihood of an expansion and real support for what I consider the most promising franchise of Paradox is lukewarm at best.
HoI 2 and now HoI 3 take a long time to see this come to fruition.
I was hoping for the Vicki series to be hard mode on the economic and military sides that Paradox seem to lack. HoI is one dimensional and EU is painfully plain. The paradox presentation of games is bar none the best out there for this type of game. Unfortunately the game play winds up being shallow and it seems until about 1+ year and at least one expansion and mega mod later until the games have matured properly.
If games aren't really good until 2 years after release why should people buy right away? I'm going to buy Vicki 2 straight up since it seems the likelihood of an expansion and real support for what I consider the most promising franchise of Paradox is lukewarm at best.
I don't you can say that PI has washed ut hands, yet. But if the problems are fixed by a add-on I would say PI washed it's hand. That would mean that the original buyers paid €40 for a beta test and have to pay another €30 to make the game enjoyable. I really hope PI takes a different route with Vicky 2: testing it before releasing it.
Too bad that there still isn't a Crusader Kings project. But I don't understand why PI isn't releasing the source of their ancients games. What will they lose with releasing the CK source? Especially considering they could make it so you need the original game to play a mod.
It's really disappointing that they're not releasing anything. Other big game studios did it and gained great reputation and undoubtedly profited from it.
- Dec 14, 1999
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There are lots that find HoI3 enjoyable.
I didn't find Warhammer Online to be enjoyable, but I did not call it €40 for a betatest.
Maybe you could open beta the extension for the HOI3 buyers, it would be really cool.
Or at least me, in order to let me mod the extension.
Or at least me, in order to let me mod the extension.
Maybe you could open beta the extension for the HOI3 buyers, it would be really cool.
Or at least me, in order to let me mod the extension.
Well I think its clear that this open RC process has ultimately helped PI a lot, so maybe they will take that one step further with other betas. I have never seen such a strong outpouring of help/save game files/screenshots for a game from people (1) not paid and (2) not exclusive beta-testing. I think PI learned a valuable lesson here.
I give great cudos to Paradox, all wonderful and real human beings that we can see in the videos, for the way they engage with the players of their games.
I wish one day they find the resources that their amazing game ideas demand in order to release their products in a more polished state.
Yet I still have had many hours of fun with their games even with features not quite working right, truth be told. The main concern with HOI3 would have to be those players who could not play at all due to crashes. Hardly good. Yet Paradox have worked hard to address it.
I'm pleased the open beta method for this patch has seemed to work well.
Still, who could doubt the passion and sincerity of this game development company faithfully patching all their titles long after release and really listening to their fans? Not me! The title of this thread has little substance to it, in my view.
Cheers,
Sword
I wish one day they find the resources that their amazing game ideas demand in order to release their products in a more polished state.
Yet I still have had many hours of fun with their games even with features not quite working right, truth be told. The main concern with HOI3 would have to be those players who could not play at all due to crashes. Hardly good. Yet Paradox have worked hard to address it.
I'm pleased the open beta method for this patch has seemed to work well.
Still, who could doubt the passion and sincerity of this game development company faithfully patching all their titles long after release and really listening to their fans? Not me! The title of this thread has little substance to it, in my view.
Cheers,
Sword
Yet, I doubt there is any other group of fans so rabid and loyal (with the potential exception of Dwarf Fortress
) that want to see these games succeed and want to help Paradox in any way they can.
I'm not quite sure it's a good idea to compare Hoi3 to WAR if you're trying to put either game in good light :wacko:
So is this a confirmation that the add-on will fix the broken parts of the game and not a patch?
I believe that the add-on will "fix" anything that is not in the scope of a patch to address, such as a major overhaul of core game engine code.