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Companies that pay testers obviously would not release RCs to the general public as it defeats the purpose of their pay testers.
They have to support their products like they do because they are small enough to where they just cannot brush off a failure and move on (although given their recent success they seem to be getting bigger).
I am sure that if paradox ever gets to be as big as some company like Activision, they legal department and management will pretty much take away all the things you praise them for. Luckily for us, unless paradox starts gobbling other companies up, it might be a while.
To the original poster. i think it is unfair to claim that a company is "washing their hands" of a game while they are in the process of doing a patch they and you yourself acknowledge they had not plan to do.
However...
I stopped buying paradox games because of their planned marketing strategy. They have been releasing games that have been sub standard out of the box and needed multiple patches to fix. Their strategy is to produces unfinished product and let their paying customers beta test the product.
I bought EU and played it for quite a while and wasn't even aware of EU2 was released until 6+ months after its release. I bought it and so missed the state of things out of the box. I did however experience HOI and Vicky in their 1.0 versions. Anyone remember HOI out of the box? It was so bad your own planes were attacked by your own AAA. Vicky never got its economy working right.
But i always stuck with paradox because i knew that they would keep patching their games until they moved on to the next version of a given title EU2 had what 9 offical patches and multiple beta patches towards the end. But EU3 was the killer for me. Paradox desided to keep their release now finish the game later policy but with a twist. now you had to buy expansions to get game fixes. Now they drop a title's support much faster EVEN when they KNOW it still have fatal bugs and flaws which they fix in an expansion. They don't provide a patch with the bug fixes minus the new features to their customers who bought the original game either. To at least give then a working game, no. now you have to buy multiple expansions and which are marketed in a very limited fashion because they KNOW people do not like to buy a main game only to have to buy an expansion to get the game fixed. So they realised it in digital media as the only way.
And don't give me paradox is a niche company arguement either and that why they have to do this. Paradox can sell their main games through stores easy enough but they know its easier to sell a complete game then to try and sell an expansion to a customer that feels they bought a unfinished game to start.
I'd much rather pay $20 more for the game and have it working then know that I will be buying an unfinished game that will be so unfinished that even after a few patches major issues will still need to be addressed and if I want those fixed i'll have to buy an expansion.
Customers are better off waiting years later and buy a repackaged version of the game with the main game plus expansions. Its cheaper and you want have had to go through a paid beta.
[EDIT] What I have seen with HOI3 on the forums was that i was right in my choice to not buy the game. i hope to buy HOI3 if i see it as a bundle with all its expansions, but thats years away i'm guessing if ever. but as a consumer the only way i can show my displeasure to a company is through my wallet. I bought EU, EU2, HOI, vicky, HOI2, EU3 and hoi2 doomsday. i still have manuals and cds for most of these games somewhere in the house too. however I haven't bought anything from paradox after EU3 because i now know that I'll not eventually get a finished game eventually unless i buy multiple expansions. Just seems smarter as a customer to wait until they release an ultimate version of a game with all the expansions included. I don't need instant gratification of buying a game i know is unfinished and i'll put on the shelf in less than a month. Paradox lost a loyal customer and while I alone make no difference if enough people deside to follow my lead paradox either has to improve or fold. Either option is better than the current state of affairs.
However...
I stopped buying paradox games because of their planned marketing strategy. They have been releasing games that have been sub standard out of the box and needed multiple patches to fix. Their strategy is to produces unfinished product and let their paying customers beta test the product.
I bought EU and played it for quite a while and wasn't even aware of EU2 was released until 6+ months after its release. I bought it and so missed the state of things out of the box. I did however experience HOI and Vicky in their 1.0 versions. Anyone remember HOI out of the box? It was so bad your own planes were attacked by your own AAA. Vicky never got its economy working right.
But i always stuck with paradox because i knew that they would keep patching their games until they moved on to the next version of a given title EU2 had what 9 offical patches and multiple beta patches towards the end. But EU3 was the killer for me. Paradox desided to keep their release now finish the game later policy but with a twist. now you had to buy expansions to get game fixes. Now they drop a title's support much faster EVEN when they KNOW it still have fatal bugs and flaws which they fix in an expansion. They don't provide a patch with the bug fixes minus the new features to their customers who bought the original game either. To at least give then a working game, no. now you have to buy multiple expansions and which are marketed in a very limited fashion because they KNOW people do not like to buy a main game only to have to buy an expansion to get the game fixed. So they realised it in digital media as the only way.
And don't give me paradox is a niche company arguement either and that why they have to do this. Paradox can sell their main games through stores easy enough but they know its easier to sell a complete game then to try and sell an expansion to a customer that feels they bought a unfinished game to start.
I'd much rather pay $20 more for the game and have it working then know that I will be buying an unfinished game that will be so unfinished that even after a few patches major issues will still need to be addressed and if I want those fixed i'll have to buy an expansion.
Customers are better off waiting years later and buy a repackaged version of the game with the main game plus expansions. Its cheaper and you want have had to go through a paid beta.
[EDIT] What I have seen with HOI3 on the forums was that i was right in my choice to not buy the game. i hope to buy HOI3 if i see it as a bundle with all its expansions, but thats years away i'm guessing if ever. but as a consumer the only way i can show my displeasure to a company is through my wallet. I bought EU, EU2, HOI, vicky, HOI2, EU3 and hoi2 doomsday. i still have manuals and cds for most of these games somewhere in the house too. however I haven't bought anything from paradox after EU3 because i now know that I'll not eventually get a finished game eventually unless i buy multiple expansions. Just seems smarter as a customer to wait until they release an ultimate version of a game with all the expansions included. I don't need instant gratification of buying a game i know is unfinished and i'll put on the shelf in less than a month. Paradox lost a loyal customer and while I alone make no difference if enough people deside to follow my lead paradox either has to improve or fold. Either option is better than the current state of affairs.
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Frankly, I have been playing Paradox games (EU3 and Hoi 3) since early January and I have to say that I don´t understand people saying that the game is in very bad state after 4 patches, that they are not going to play it anymore and that Paradox has disappointed them. I mean, have you really seen how other companies work and what they do after release?. I´ll tell you, if you are lucky and the game was a hit they will try to fix the game to sell you an expansion, if it got average sales only they´ll make some patches with some fixes and that´s all. If the game didn´t sell well you´ll be lucky if they fix any of hard to fix bugs. I have seen large companies, like Atari, totally abandoning a game because of low sales. They really don´t mind, as many of their customers are teenagers which apparently don´t remember afterwards.
In this regard Paradox seems to fix most, if not all bugs it can. I am sure some of them won´t be fixed, which is a pity, but at least we know there is going to be at least one expansion which will fix the rest, tweak some already existing features and add some new ones. I am playing the game and I don´t feel that it´s broken, nor anything like that. Sure, AI needs to be better in the military (especially overseas invasions) and production part, and some other things need to be added (sea supply convoys, IMHO), but, overall, I think Paradox makes a good job supporting their/our games (yes, our games. They make them but WE are the ones who pay for them).
In this regard Paradox seems to fix most, if not all bugs it can. I am sure some of them won´t be fixed, which is a pity, but at least we know there is going to be at least one expansion which will fix the rest, tweak some already existing features and add some new ones. I am playing the game and I don´t feel that it´s broken, nor anything like that. Sure, AI needs to be better in the military (especially overseas invasions) and production part, and some other things need to be added (sea supply convoys, IMHO), but, overall, I think Paradox makes a good job supporting their/our games (yes, our games. They make them but WE are the ones who pay for them).
I think this is true.
When HoI2:Armageddon came out I felt it was a disaster. I was upset, felt like Paradox pulled a fast one on me. Judging from forum posts, many people were thinking like me. But after a long wait it finally became a nice game, and I was confident that Paradox learned their lesson.
So I bought HoI3 a few days after its release, and it was much worse.
Yes, my trust is severely damaged.
Then do as I did with EU 3. Wait for a year or more and buy the game AND its expansions with a BIG discount.
PS. Oh, sorry, ddin´t read your final part.
True, but this is the reason I buy games only as gold versions from the discount table. Arma and HoI3 were really exceptions.
The question is: does Paradox want their customers pay 60 € for a game and expansion rhight after release, or 10 € a few years later from the discount table?
You even recommend to wait for the discount. But do you really think Paradox makes enough money to stay in the business this way?
Despite the still remaining issues after 1.4 HOI3 is the best grand strategy WW2 game ever made on computers.
That does not mean that it doesn't need to be improved and modded to be more reliable.
Indeed, most of the issues can be solved by modding for more realism.
Next version of Jackdermod will be awesome, Dermeister and I are actually testing it, it will be released with 1.4 final.
We have reworked the Leadership system, it will be no longer linked with map but with a new building type called "College".
So is manpower, "Military bases" will replace the old system.
The first building is linked with the industrial policies, the second with mobilisation policies.
That does not mean that it doesn't need to be improved and modded to be more reliable.
Indeed, most of the issues can be solved by modding for more realism.
Next version of Jackdermod will be awesome, Dermeister and I are actually testing it, it will be released with 1.4 final.
We have reworked the Leadership system, it will be no longer linked with map but with a new building type called "College".
So is manpower, "Military bases" will replace the old system.
The first building is linked with the industrial policies, the second with mobilisation policies.
I do also play P'dox games since January .... 2002; I do remenber I bought EU2 1.5 the third sunday of january 2002 ...
I believe we do have to precise the very concept of bugs :
1) it name a silly mistake done by the programmer (such a variable mispelling or an never ending loop). Those bugs are indeed fixed by P'dox patches (if not, games would not have a long life).
2) it also name a coding design flaw (or a supposed one). One exemple with HOI3 (but there are a lot more than one; real or supposed I am not arguing about it) is the (in)famous supply system.
What is actually pissing off long term customers (me since 2002. some for more than that); is when the lead programmer state : the feature is not working as expected but we will not fix it unless it's an add on.
Back in 2002; we were forgiving a lot from P'Dox, because they were given us a lot; and they had very limitate ressources. But what was true in 2002 is not true today. They do have ressources, and they give us very little (give = a gift; mean something extra for free, without cost, as compensation for some inconvenience).
For all it's flaws, HOI2 was imediatly playable; the famous ghost ships bugs was easily fixed for someone able to mod the AI files.
How can a user (even an experienced programer) fix the AI behavior while keeping the 'sand box' concept? That is not possible unless your brake the /.exe and brake also the EULA? That is possible (as Lothos showed us recently) to introduce aset of rules with the .lua files. But the more rules you put in the .lua; the more you drift from the very concept of 'sand box' that was in the very heart of HOI3 idea.
So unless P'dox give away .exe (it would be insane to do so); or re design completly the coding; HOI3 may be considered as a failure with regards to the original goals as outlined here AND advertised . The very moment Johann stated several features that are not working as designed will not be fixed but in an expension was the very moment he acted as Ponce Pilate.
On the other hand, I still play with it, but I do not have the pleasure I had with Hoi2. I even had more fun with W.I.R. 3.3 (thanks Arnoud Bouix).
Well, I don't agree on the damaged franchise part, but all the rest is absolutely true.
Whatever patch will come out now it'll be way too late to fix what already heppened. I bought this game in August 09 and never played beyond 1940.
Now HOI3 got an "Obsolete" checkbox over it and I moved to other games.
Price for HOI3 has dropped following the videogames market rules and piracy, of course, took its toll, so whatever release they'll do now ain't doing any good to Paradox, if not under marketing/customer care point of view.
I would really be pissed to read this if I was in Paradox. Washing their hands off? Are you damn stupid?
I think paradox developpers are pressured to follow up on their other projects, as many people who have jobs here know: we need to meet deadlines, often when we can't meet a deadline we delay it for the next time we work on it.
The fact that they re putting so much time in this (after the release) and ask for help/input from the community is really impressive. My guess is that they won't wash their hands of HOI3, they will fix the other issues in the expansion (as they already stated several times).
Example: "empire total war" was an unfinished game, with serious issues. The new "expansion" Napoleon Total war is what they made to fix the issues from "empire total war". (the difference is that the expansion is released as a stand-alone game, maybe this could be the case for the HOI3 expansion if paradox has to put a lot of time in it)
The fact that they re putting so much time in this (after the release) and ask for help/input from the community is really impressive. My guess is that they won't wash their hands of HOI3, they will fix the other issues in the expansion (as they already stated several times).
Example: "empire total war" was an unfinished game, with serious issues. The new "expansion" Napoleon Total war is what they made to fix the issues from "empire total war". (the difference is that the expansion is released as a stand-alone game, maybe this could be the case for the HOI3 expansion if paradox has to put a lot of time in it)
IMO, players and pay testers do not have the same function. Pay testers would test the inner mechanics of a game, based on a list of functionality given by the company. Regular players however would test the whole game based on their videogame, gameplay or history knowledge. Different but complementary functions IMO.endor said:
Originally posted by EricB
So unless P'dox give away .exe (it would be insane to do so); or re design completly the coding; HOI3 may be considered as a failure with regards to the original goals as outlined here AND advertised . The very moment Johann stated several features that are not working as designed will not be fixed but in an expension was the very moment he acted as Ponce Pilate.
On the other hand, I still play with it, but I do not have the pleasure I had with Hoi2. I even had more fun with W.I.R. 3.3 (thanks Arnoud Bouix).[/QUOTE]
Well, perhaps the problem is that people believe advertisements. Why do you believe software advertisements/told features (telling you the game will feature a never seen and incredible weather and supply system and blah, blah…) if you won´t believe, for example, soap advertisements/told “features”? (telling you that it won´t leave a single spot on you clothes, for example).
I guess it´s about expectations. I didn´t expect something great about this game (although I think I found it, but I was just trying the game. No expectations), while I guess some of you did expect a lot.
Anyway, I can see your point, however, I´ll tell you that Paradox is doing nothing different than most or all companies out there. Yes, it´s a pity, but that´s they way it´s now. Perhaps some young, still idealistic company will come in near future and will make things right again (and let´s hope potential buyers really start appreciating these kind of companies). Fingers crossed.
So unless P'dox give away .exe (it would be insane to do so); or re design completly the coding; HOI3 may be considered as a failure with regards to the original goals as outlined here AND advertised . The very moment Johann stated several features that are not working as designed will not be fixed but in an expension was the very moment he acted as Ponce Pilate.
On the other hand, I still play with it, but I do not have the pleasure I had with Hoi2. I even had more fun with W.I.R. 3.3 (thanks Arnoud Bouix).[/QUOTE]
Well, perhaps the problem is that people believe advertisements. Why do you believe software advertisements/told features (telling you the game will feature a never seen and incredible weather and supply system and blah, blah…) if you won´t believe, for example, soap advertisements/told “features”? (telling you that it won´t leave a single spot on you clothes, for example).
I guess it´s about expectations. I didn´t expect something great about this game (although I think I found it, but I was just trying the game. No expectations), while I guess some of you did expect a lot.
Anyway, I can see your point, however, I´ll tell you that Paradox is doing nothing different than most or all companies out there. Yes, it´s a pity, but that´s they way it´s now. Perhaps some young, still idealistic company will come in near future and will make things right again (and let´s hope potential buyers really start appreciating these kind of companies). Fingers crossed.
OP - washing hands? No evidence of this. What drama. What rubbish. PI have a proven track record of supporting games and I'd bet body parts that this will continue for HOI3. I can't wait 'till it's completed.
Munin made a reference to ETW. I bought that. Bought Viking TW, Rome TW & expansion, Medieval TW. Loved 'em all. After ETW, I will not buy another unless I hear from a trusted source that it's up to it as I felt totally cheated.
You cannot extract the urine from intelligent people without consequences.
PI have treated us similarly, but not quite as badly. HOI3 was almost unplayable on release. This is not acceptable at this point, HOI 1 was unstable and unpolished on release, but Paradox aren't a startup any more. I hope PI are able to get their house in order so limitations in their software development process stops letting them and their customers down.
Munin made a reference to ETW. I bought that. Bought Viking TW, Rome TW & expansion, Medieval TW. Loved 'em all. After ETW, I will not buy another unless I hear from a trusted source that it's up to it as I felt totally cheated.
You cannot extract the urine from intelligent people without consequences.
PI have treated us similarly, but not quite as badly. HOI3 was almost unplayable on release. This is not acceptable at this point, HOI 1 was unstable and unpolished on release, but Paradox aren't a startup any more. I hope PI are able to get their house in order so limitations in their software development process stops letting them and their customers down.
Paradox give me FUN, dont give me WORK !
Paradox give me FUN, dont give me WORK !
The great question, for me, is not what Paradox does AFTER its past games are released. It is what they WILL do BEFORE the next games.
I am lost with what to expect from HOI3, and when, an with which mod or expansion,
and it just PREVENTS me from starting a game because I have so little time for this, what with being a father and high responsibility officer.
Only Paradox has real ambitions for grognard grand strategy, so wether I will buy their games is not a question : I WILL because some day I wand a grand game to emerge.
But I don't HAVE TO say I'm pleased with HOI3 : I'm not having fun ! I want some polished game I can trust. I can pay.
Paradox give me FUN, dont give me WORK !
The great question, for me, is not what Paradox does AFTER its past games are released. It is what they WILL do BEFORE the next games.
I am lost with what to expect from HOI3, and when, an with which mod or expansion,
and it just PREVENTS me from starting a game because I have so little time for this, what with being a father and high responsibility officer.
Only Paradox has real ambitions for grognard grand strategy, so wether I will buy their games is not a question : I WILL because some day I wand a grand game to emerge.
But I don't HAVE TO say I'm pleased with HOI3 : I'm not having fun ! I want some polished game I can trust. I can pay.
Yes. Their cunning plan to shut up all the critics is... TO FIX THE GAME. How dare they. And what will all you whiners do when 1.4 is finally finished? Get a life?
This is a lie. Plain and simple LIE.
I agree completely. They do support their games but their releases have been terrible the last 3, 4 years. Paradox has a huge stable of games they're publishing so they can't hide against the niche argument anymore.
I'm giving Paradox the last chance with Victoria 2. I won't buy or pre-order it immediately. I'll await for the (real, not from betatesters who's reviews are obviously written by the marketing department) reviews. I will buy it if it's completed and good. If it's terrible on release I think there is a small chance I will ever buy a Paradox game again, except from the bargain bin.
I'm also disappointed with some Paradox insiders. Basically saying that it's too bad that things are broken but they're not going to do anything about it. But they're probably going to release a €30 expansion this year adding more faulty design on the current crap.