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unmerged(35723)

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Is this really true? Paradox games may be review-proof, in the same way as, say, that Transformers movie last summer was. I don't know if they're actually suffering any damage from their current practices.

As for the review, I guess it's fair, though I don't see crashes post-1.3 anymore myself.

I think they may be downgraded on CMMI rating or equivalent (if they ever bother). Do they care? To some extend, yes. Did we hear that Vicky2 is to be beta tested externally? On the other hand, PI has established dominance in this niche market through their hard work. Until one day they face serious competition, "Get It Right The First Time" is no longer that important to them. We shall still expect buggy early releases in the future.
 

Castellon

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bluepoo

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Did you think that comment through? I'm amazed, really quite astounded actually, that you think alternate history and implausiblehistory are the same thing.

I feel like a primary school teacher, but here goes:

Alternate history = Germany obtaining air supremacy and invading England using their small navy and a lot of small boats, barges, etc. They can't be stopped because the RN gets blown up by German land-based plans.

Implausible history = Norway decides they didn't really like their homeland that much and decides to send their forces to overtake Antarctica, with a northern outpost on Madagascar.


thank you for the examples and being a primary school teacher.

im⋅plau⋅si⋅ble: -adjective, not plausible; not having the appearance of truth or credibility: an implausible alibi.

al⋅ter⋅nate: –adjective, 11. constituting an alternative: The alternate route is more scenic

al⋅ter⋅na⋅tive: –adjective, 4. affording a choice of two or more things, propositions, or courses of action.

implausible, while not having the appearance of truth or credibility, is subjective in nature as is alternate and alternative. the key word is 'appearance'. because something is implausible, it does not mean it is not considered as an alternative for someone else, because 'everyone has a point of view' and thus limitations in their alternatives and choices, one is limited in their plausible choices. hence, their plausible reality. however, if push comes to shove, implausible, turns into an alternative and an alternate reality, hence an implausible alternative becomes a plausible reality through alternate decisions.

maybe if you stop thinking like a primary school teacher, then you might understand how to think like an adult.
 
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Semantics aside, there are people who want to play a WWII game, which feels as such and which limits its alternative history to plausible, realistic outcomes. This is not always a matter of opinion, some outcomes are simply so unlikely that they are not credible or even possible. Japan going North instead of South would be an example of credible alternative history, Japan invading Norway an example of utter bs.

While they are people who would welcome both (I also remember a guy arguing for more fantasy like Orc units), they are some who don't. What I really don't get it why this attracts both so much antagonism and so much ignorance (I rarely see any intelligent counter-argument to plausibility, this thread being no exception).

This aside, the review is very good and spot-on. I feel let down by Paradox both for publishing such an unfinished product and for their tardiness with regard to plausibility. I would pay premium prices to support a company that makes games nobody else makes, but fantasy games with historic flavor are a dime a dozen and a lot work better than HoI does right now.
 

unmerged(183189)

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Firstly, I'm a gamer, not a historian, I really don't care how accurately the game matches what happened historically. You could change the map of the world, replace the units with orcs, elves or space marines and I'd probably enjoy the mechanics/design all the same.

I think the problem that a lot of people complain about with regards to the unlikely a-historical outcomes is as follows.

WW2 happened. People know what happened, how it happened where it happened. People can look back and see potential errors, or wonder how small changes or different choices could have affected the outcome. And people who love their ww2 history seem to love having discussions and arguments about the what ifs. With a game like HoI3, these people want to see what difference THEIR choices make to the historical outcome. When massive unlikely a-historical events take place that the player had no influence in, it almost negates their reason for playing. How can the possibly see what affect THEY had on the outcome of the war, when there are so many other non historical occurrences happening out of their control.

I think to rectify this problem, or at least to test that it's been rectified, you should be able to play a game, where all the countries are AI controlled, and the progress of the war along with the end result should be at least similar to the historical occurrences, at least 5 times out of 10.

While I personally don't care too much about this aspect, I can surely understand the disappointment of those who do want to experience that side to the game.
 

Federkiel

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I think the problem that a lot of people complain about with regards to the unlikely a-historical outcomes is as follows.

WW2 happened. People know what happened, how it happened where it happened. People can look back and see potential errors, or wonder how small changes or different choices could have affected the outcome. And people who love their ww2 history seem to love having discussions and arguments about the what ifs. With a game like HoI3, these people want to see what difference THEIR choices make to the historical outcome. When massive unlikely a-historical events take place that the player had no influence in, it almost negates their reason for playing. How can the possibly see what affect THEY had on the outcome of the war, when there are so many other non historical occurrences happening out of their control.

I think to rectify this problem, or at least to test that it's been rectified, you should be able to play a game, where all the countries are AI controlled, and the progress of the war along with the end result should be at least similar to the historical occurrences, at least 5 times out of 10.

While I personally don't care too much about this aspect, I can surely understand the disappointment of those who do want to experience that side to the game.


Very well put!

I absolutely agree with what you say!


Sadly, the current state of the game even goes further. We actually have to face strictures - which are entirely unlikely in the context:

- Sweden inevitably ends under the Nazi boot. Either they get aligned by ALLIES or they get DoWed by GER
- Switzerland inevitably (one only has to play past '42) joins ALLIES only to get blitzed by GER
- Ireland inevitably joins ALLIES

and many more ahistorical issues that show up.

The player must actually try to counter this 'regular' course of the game. Very annoying, time consuming and not satisfying to any customer who expects a game playing in the ww2 context and timeframe.

Too much work on part of the player is necessary to get a historical course and if the player does not control a leading major power (GER/JAP/UK/USA) he just will be put into the role of a spectator of a what can be called a 'mere fantasy movie' from the historical perspective.


Not so much the game and it's mechanics are flawed failures but the course of events that develop out of too much randomness and programmed odd preferences.


To satisfy the majority of kinds of players, not too many restrictions would be good, yes. As Evov points out, players wish to make a difference - to play THEIR campaign which may differ from reality. But the general grid of what actually happens around them in the ingame environment ought to remain within the reasonable.

It's is good if for example AI GER sometimes fails in a Barbarossa and sometimes wins but it's not good when AI USSR overproduces land units, deploys half of it's undermanned units on the Manchurian border only to get crushed at it's main front, what usually happens in the current state of the game. The consequences for AI JAP to behave the same way have already been mentioned enough by me and others alike.

If the player does not control one of the involved powers, the overall course of the game ends predestined. It does not matter whether the player exists at all within this campaign. Therefore he could save his time and effort to do something more interesting - and be it playing another game where he can derive fun by doing 'something important' since he is the main actor there.



EDIT: For me personally it is not necessary to always play an impacting major power. I also like impersonating some remote minor. But i don't like impersonating anyone in what happens on the HoI 3 map in the current state of game development. It's like saying 'oh my god - what a weird mess!' all the time.
 
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unmerged(153869)

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Unpatched or patched, the game doesn't really change much. Still, the AI and some historical inaccuracies and the fact that it's impossible to hold Soviet Union back as Finland are only things that trouble me about Hoi 3. Some players had huge lag even with high end computers, but I got huge lag only after updating to 1.2.

So yeah, they sorta messed up with patches, but I don't really mind.
 

unmerged(156573)

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Just my very short view on this discussion. I am not interested in getting heavily involved in these forums because I have enough to do as it is.

But the main complaint here is one I can agree with: this game has a huge potential, but wasn't ready to be released.

This is not a PI specific problem, most games seem to be released too early nowadays. I don't agree with the non-paying customers/downloaders, but publishers are quickly losing sympaty here.

You can't make the people pay 50 for a game which is buggy. It is getting more and more reasonable to buy a game from the budget shelves after a year because then either the game has been patched or will never be patched so you are sure never to buy it. And if it is patched you get a working game for much less.

This year I have bought only 1 game that was as it was supposed to be: Dragon age origins. Empire total war, HOI3, ArmA2 and some others were buggy as hell. That is unacceptable. Besides that: even from digital distribution you still have to pay at least as much as when you buy it in a store (Steam worst example). I cannot justify companies like that. Whining like a kid about illegal downloads but behaving like a bully themselves.

I think it is time for the customers can expect something from the developers. For years we heard the cries about illegal software and lost income. Fine, they were right about that. But now they should live up to the expectations: deliver working products. Or get a system up and running for customers to get their money back when their game is not working. Anyway, I hope some international legislation will be invented for this, because clearly the industry itself is not going to solve this.
 

unmerged(185501)

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Just my very short view on this discussion. I am not interested in getting heavily involved in these forums because I have enough to do as it is.

But the main complaint here is one I can agree with: this game has a huge potential, but wasn't ready to be released.

This is not a PI specific problem, most games seem to be released too early nowadays. I don't agree with the non-paying customers/downloaders, but publishers are quickly losing sympaty here.

You can't make the people pay 50 for a game which is buggy. It is getting more and more reasonable to buy a game from the budget shelves after a year because then either the game has been patched or will never be patched so you are sure never to buy it. And if it is patched you get a working game for much less.

This year I have bought only 1 game that was as it was supposed to be: Dragon age origins. Empire total war, HOI3, ArmA2 and some others were buggy as hell. That is unacceptable. Besides that: even from digital distribution you still have to pay at least as much as when you buy it in a store (Steam worst example). I cannot justify companies like that. Whining like a kid about illegal downloads but behaving like a bully themselves.

I think it is time for the customers can expect something from the developers. For years we heard the cries about illegal software and lost income. Fine, they were right about that. But now they should live up to the expectations: deliver working products. Or get a system up and running for customers to get their money back when their game is not working. Anyway, I hope some international legislation will be invented for this, because clearly the industry itself is not going to solve this.

Hear Hear I couldn't agree more. This release of HOI III was sloppy very sloppy and has to be the worst Paradox developed release to date. I agree pretty much with the review as well. I think everyone should just stop buying these sloppy releases when they are new. Paradox has a past like this from the origional HOI now how long ago was that? I've heard say if it looks like it, and smells like it and tastes like it then it usually is like it.
 

unmerged(148988)

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That is good review, but IMO most of it is far too charitable.

Bought HoI3 the day it released.

Determined, within a week or ten days, that it was flawed to the point of unplayability and needed months more development before it went to market.

Gave up, as I didn't feel like beta-testing a game I'd already paid for.

Holiday time, bored, decided to check out the most recent patch. Game is still totally screwed up and wouldn't be fit for release even today, 4-5 months later.

Guess I'll check back again next summer...
 

unmerged(183189)

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Why not have an option for historical game and ahistorical anything goes?That would satisfy both sides,those that want historical and those that want fantasy/ahistorical.


Because I don't think there's anyone really that wants to play the game in a fantasy/ahistorical environment. People want the option of making ahistorical choices in a historically familiar environment.

I think it's mostly just a case of fine tuning a few things... mostly the way the AI's diplomatic choices are made and certain thresholds on when they declare war and what factions they tend to move towards.

At the moment though, ahistoric events are the least of their problems while the game is still laggy with a woefully inadequate supply system, major shortcommings in the area's of tool tips, AI, certain unit balance, broken techs etc etc. If they could get all those things fixed up... I really couldn't care how historically relevant things are.
 

unmerged(181599)

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Because I don't think there's anyone really that wants to play the game in a fantasy/ahistorical environment. People want the option of making ahistorical choices in a historically familiar environment.

I think it's mostly just a case of fine tuning a few things... mostly the way the AI's diplomatic choices are made and certain thresholds on when they declare war and what factions they tend to move towards.

At the moment though, ahistoric events are the least of their problems while the game is still laggy with a woefully inadequate supply system, major shortcommings in the area's of tool tips, AI, certain unit balance, broken techs etc etc. If they could get all those things fixed up... I really couldn't care how historically relevant things are.

I don't mind things going a-historical in games, as long as it makes sense. Something like the US joining Comintern would be ridiculous, but joining Allies earlier doesn't bother me at all. I like it when things get un-predictable like that.

Something like a 75% chance of a historical outcome would be great. Ensures that most of the time, things will go to plan, but there's a chance for a screw up to make things interesting.
 

unmerged(177078)

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thank you for the examples and being a primary school teacher.

im⋅plau⋅si⋅ble: -adjective, not plausible; not having the appearance of truth or credibility: an implausible alibi.

al⋅ter⋅nate: –adjective, 11. constituting an alternative: The alternate route is more scenic

al⋅ter⋅na⋅tive: –adjective, 4. affording a choice of two or more things, propositions, or courses of action.

implausible, while not having the appearance of truth or credibility, is subjective in nature as is alternate and alternative. the key word is 'appearance'. because something is implausible, it does not mean it is not considered as an alternative for someone else, because 'everyone has a point of view' and thus limitations in their alternatives and choices, one is limited in their plausible choices. hence, their plausible reality. however, if push comes to shove, implausible, turns into an alternative and an alternate reality, hence an implausible alternative becomes a plausible reality through alternate decisions.

maybe if you stop thinking like a primary school teacher, then you might understand how to think like an adult.

hahaha your post made me laugh for several reasons.
1. You tried to sound all clever and deep and meaningful, but did not pull it off.

2. You said earlier that you don't think there is any difference between implausible and alternate history, and seem to be sticking by it despite my ridiculous example regarding Finland. How about Italy building a space rocket to the moon? Mussolini decides that this would be a good idea and according to you "implausible alternative becomes a plausible reality through alternate decisions." Where do you draw the line? Travelling to the moon in '42, or Japan invading Norway? Both are ridiculous and would not or could not have happened - except when the AI is in control.

3. You think that primary school teachers are not adults, or do not think like them :rofl:
 

Fortium

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Is this really true? Paradox games may be review-proof, in the same way as, say, that Transformers movie last summer was. I don't know if they're actually suffering any damage from their current practices.

Well, along the lines of this post.

I refused to watch Transformers because of my horrible experience with Michael Bay and Pearl Harbor. That movie was dreadful.

It's not unthinkable that the same could happen with future Paradox releases because of the clearly unsatisfactory previous releases.

Reviews do stick and follow movie directors around.... could also happen to games.
 

bluepoo

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hahaha your post made me laugh for several reasons.
1. You tried to sound all clever and deep and meaningful, but did not pull it off.

2. You said earlier that you don't think there is any difference between implausible and alternate history, and seem to be sticking by it despite my ridiculous example regarding Finland. How about Italy building a space rocket to the moon? Mussolini decides that this would be a good idea and according to you "implausible alternative becomes a plausible reality through alternate decisions." Where do you draw the line? Travelling to the moon in '42, or Japan invading Norway? Both are ridiculous and would not or could not have happened - except when the AI is in control.

3. You think that primary school teachers are not adults, or do not think like them :rofl:

usually, when people start laughing its a sign of weakness. so you've pretty much shot yourself there in the foot.

to answer your questions

1. the intent was not to sound 'all clever and deep and meaningful', the intent was to put a logical point(s) into the argument and make my case as you clearly were against the point being made.

2. thats the point. as ridiculous as it sounds to you, whether it is plausible to you or not, identifying where the line is drawn is mutually objective, to a certain point. each person's line, each soceity's line is subjective. however, it does not mean that implausible situations, as ridiculous as it sounds to you, are not plausible. otherwise you limit your alternatives and limit yourself to what is plausible or not. only hindsight gives a person authority on what is plausible or not. whether its technically achievable or not, is another case. however, if you put your mind to it and if the will and neccissity is there, the implausable becomes an alternative. in response to your moon idea with mussolini; i have one better for you, fdr+truman et al= atom bomb, who during ww2 would have that that was plausible in developing such a destructive weapon before the end of the war? (rhetorical, dont answer) certainly not einstein. if you didnt understand that from my post, then that is your problem. and regarding the moon idea, it wasnt too long after ww2 that kennedy made the decision to send someone to the moon from the same ww2 generation. so your implausiblity, allowed the americans to send a man to the moon first.

3. from my own experience, teachers, in most cases, are limited in scope and awareness and are generally dumb. it all depends on the individual being taught and the teacher. if the individual is genuinely interested in learning and the teacher is genuinely interested in teaching, then it is the teacher's responsiblity to identify the pupil and enhance the pupil's knowledge, whether in military warfare or math, science etc. whether the teacher is able to enhance this ability or not is evident in our world today. generally, a world full of mediocrity is not classified as teachers succeeding in their jobs. unfortunately, today, teachers are expected to accomplish miracles with a generation of obsolute imbeciles who in most cases, do not go to school to learn, rather it is a compulsory duty. hence to answer your question, its subjective and it all depends on the teacher and pupil. sure, they're adults, in age.

this is probably the last i'll post in your way as you clearly wasted my time in replying with my point. my reason of posting was to drive the message 'home' to you. "arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded". unfortunately for me, i'm classified with you in this as i have allowed myself to reply back to your obvious neglect of understanding what i've written in the context of the point being made in the original post. whether you understand it, interpret it wrongly, that would be your problem.
 
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