Paradox should avoid selling focus trees as DLC

[RWGreening]

Honestly aside from a select few countries i dont think there should be any more NFs, as it stands the default NF tree looks fairly powerful, and able to shape the way you want your country to go in as a minor power much more effectively than in hoi3. If i where to add some national focues i would add Canada, Australia, Both chinas, Greece, and either Brazil or Argentina (to spice up the southern americas) but aside from that i dont think any other countries really have a need for their own NFs. Otherwise i fear that too many of the options will be canceled out in the majors NFs leading to a rather useless mechanic which can possibly break the ai/historical aspect of the game.

 

[Heatth]

But you'd sell little to no-work content like focus trees?

Here what Johan had to say on the subject:

Ironically, focus trees tend to be the most costly things to develop, test & balance.

So, yeah, what you said is just wrong.

 

[KalZakath]

Here's why I don't think that they'll ever actually sell the trees as DLC:

Multi-player.

It's going to be bad enough sorting through all of the mods out there that would change the ability of people to group together in games, can you imagine them actually adding to the chaos of the checksums by having people have to buy all of the DLCs in order to play multiplayer, or be limited in who they can hook up with for monetary reasons?

The way I see it:

Anything cosmetic = DLC fair game. Doesn't change the checksum, allows the download to play with anyone else in the HOI universe.

Anything non-cosmetic = DLC off limits. If it's a new tree, it's going to change the checksum. It would be like me as Switzerland modding in an easy way to break neutrality, build up the army quick and declare war on Germany in 1936. No one else would have it, so why would they expect it, lol. If everyone had the Switzerland DLC, then at least everyone's on a level playing field an know if someone takes Switzerland, what they're actually capable of. But forcing people to buy it to play the game with everyone, that's wrong. That's like having to pay a subscription to be able to play in a free-group, which should have been opened up with the initial purchase of the game. Might not be stating this very well, hope people get the idea at least of what I'm saying, lol.

In short - anything that would cause people to not be able to play with each other, should be put off and included with an xpac or update. This will keep the MP pool as large and compatible as possible.

 

[griffor]

Here's why I don't think that they'll ever actually sell the trees as DLC:

Multi-player.

It's going to be bad enough sorting through all of the mods out there that would change the ability of people to group together in games, can you imagine them actually adding to the chaos of the checksums by having people have to buy all of the DLCs in order to play multiplayer, or be limited in who they can hook up with for monetary reasons?

The way I see it:

Anything cosmetic = DLC fair game. Doesn't change the checksum, allows the download to play with anyone else in the HOI universe.

Anything non-cosmetic = DLC off limits. If it's a new tree, it's going to change the checksum. It would be like me as Switzerland modding in an easy way to break neutrality, build up the army quick and declare war on Germany in 1936. No one else would have it, so why would they expect it, lol. If everyone had the Switzerland DLC, then at least everyone's on a level playing field an know if someone takes Switzerland, what they're actually capable of. But forcing people to buy it to play the game with everyone, that's wrong. That's like having to pay a subscription to be able to play in a free-group, which should have been opened up with the initial purchase of the game. Might not be stating this very well, hope people get the idea at least of what I'm saying, lol.

In short - anything that would cause people to not be able to play with each other, should be put off and included with an xpac or update. This will keep the MP pool as large and compatible as possible.

have you played a multiplayer game from paradox you do realize if host has dlc everyone gets dlc right?

 

[KalZakath]

griffor - not for a long time. Have run into lots of problems with other games from other companies that have issues with compatibility. Sorry - you can disregard if I'm mixing companies.

 

[overthewall]

Selling NF trees is terribly similar to practices of much-hated companies like CA. I'm sure no-one would have defend CA's "culture packs" this rigorously, and I see some people are now pushing for "regional DLCs", almost carbon-copies of culture packs. NFs do not add new mechanics to the game, rather overhaul the existing generic-placeholder stuff. The way I see it, anything that improves gameplay in grand campaign without adding new mechanics should be delivered by patches, especially when they fix underdeveloped aspects of it. PDS could have had a pretty solid DLC model formed around expansions (new systems&mechanics), flavors (music&models) and small-campaigns (spanish civil war etc.). I can see no reason to include grand campaign NFs to those, especially when they can be modded into the game easily. What will be the stance of PDS against a mod that replicates focus trees added by DLCs, will they take it down then?

 

[griffor]

griffor - not for a long time. Have run into lots of problems with other games from other companies that have issues with compatibility. Sorry - you can disregard if I'm mixing companies.

its ok new system is pretty awesome not sure how it works with mods but all of paradox's content works amazing as host is only one who needs dlc kinda lets u get some test out see if you really want it or not

 

[SaydaNeen]

If i where to add some nationa focues i would add Canada, Australia, Both chinas, Greece, and either Brazil or Argentina (to spice up the southern americas) but aside from that i dont think any other countries really have a need for their own NFs.

I agree, but i would also add Finland in there. Finland was very much apart of the war and even apart of its own war "The Winter War" I would say its almost a must because a general focus tree wouldnt safice for the decisions that could be made or were made.

Selling NF trees is terribly similar to practices of much-hated companies like CA.

Im sure that National Focus trees wont be sold by themselves but as an addition to the DLC pack, im guessing it would be more like a added bonus to the DLC just look at previous EU IV DLC and CK2 DLC for examples. ultimately it is for you to decide whether the DLC is worth buying or not, if not, then oh well. It is the sales that will change their mind, not this constant squabbaling. besides nobody really knows if they are even in fact going to sell them in DLC's they might just be updates.

 

[Karimas]

How about ...wait until its that time?
Funny how people talk about updates when still waiting for the main game.
Seriously, they will find a way to handle it. Compare it to Eu4 and its dlc´s.
I bet it will very like there. So...how about...waiting?

 

[seattle]

From a company and fan standpoint doing so would be a bad idea.

1. National focus trees are purely a scripting job that any mod can (and probably make) and fans are unlikely to buy such low effort add-ons.

2. To prevent competition with such dlc Paradox would have to start banning purely scripting mods would sets a bad precedence and would endanger good will with the modding community.

That's exactly my line of thinking. There'll be more mods than in any HoI-game before due to the expected sales, moddability and the steam workshop.
Civ5 offered lots of nation-DLC while there were hundreds of user-made nations in the workshop. Poor crossover, why pay for something you can get for free at a similar quality?

Nation-specific content (like tech trees) will be abundant in the workshop. PDS would be much better off if they focused on expansions that go beyond the capability of modders. Full-fledged feature-rich expansions like the ones in Vicky2. Don't try to win an uphill battle against the modding community!

 

[Ricox]

National focuses are never going to be implemented as a standalone DLC, and will probably never become a main event in a DLC pack for a couple of reasons:
1. They're never going to be able to make anything that modders won't have made about five minutes out the door, or at least, they won't be able to make anything that is better than a mod to such a degree that it's worth buying the DLC
2. National focus trees are purely script work, as far as their implementation is concerned. I've never done any modding, but I assume that adding them in is as simple as changing a .txt or following a tutorial about modding in an event. This is too easy for ne'er-do-wells to copy, and so it doesn't make any sense for a business standpoint.

Yep, unit packs are pretty cancerous stuff.

1. Any national focus mod that has 5 minutes of work invested into it is going to be absolutely terrible. Paradox investing into such a DLC would be much higher quality than most mods that would cover the same area because mods do not have the same human resources invested. Even major mods for popular PI titles would have trouble competing with a game corporation utilizing its vast resources.

2. National focus trees are NOT purely scripting work. They require HISTORICAL RESEARCH, BALANCING and other vital development functions, including QA and artwork (in order to give good-looking pictures for each focus, although most can be re-used without looking off).

 

[safe-keeper]

But you'd sell little to no-work content like focus trees?

We've already been through this in this thread. Even if they released DLCs that were only focus trees, which they probably won't, focus trees actually take more time and effort than just coding, because of research, brainstorming, testing, balancing, and so on.

 

[xtfoster]

But you'd sell little to no-work content like focus trees?

Tell the researchers that they have done 'little to no-work'
Tell the alpha/beta-testers that they have done 'little to no-work'
Tell the graphics designers that they have done 'little to no-work'

Are you seriously going to complain about them selling a DLC, which costs less than a kid's meal at a fast food restaurant (and is not required to play the game*)

Remember PDS's official stance on DLC (at least how I remember it).
DLC - Graphics changes, minor other changes, no major gameplay changes - Not required to play the game (even in MP - In MP what DLC is used is based on the host's setup, all other players get a temporary copy of the DLC for that MP session).
Expansion - Major gameplay changes - Required to play the game for that content.

 

[xtfoster]

Here's why I don't think that they'll ever actually sell the trees as DLC:

Multi-player.<SNIP>

If your assumptions about DLC affecting MP were true you would probably be right. But DLC no longer affects MP (since EUIV/CKII), instead all players get temporary 'free' copies of the game-host's DLC for that MP session (a benefit of being a Steam exclusive game).

 

[safe-keeper]

Selling NF trees is terribly similar to practices of much-hated companies like CA. I'm sure no-one would have defend CA's "culture packs" this rigorously, and I see some people are now pushing for "regional DLCs", almost carbon-copies of culture packs. NFs do not add new mechanics to the game, rather overhaul the existing generic-placeholder stuff. The way I see it, anything that improves gameplay in grand campaign without adding new mechanics should be delivered by patches, especially when they fix underdeveloped aspects of it. PDS could have had a pretty solid DLC model formed around expansions (new systems&mechanics), flavors (music&models) and small-campaigns (spanish civil war etc.). I can see no reason to include grand campaign NFs to those, especially when they can be modded into the game easily.

This has been answered repeatedly in this thread, but "regional DLCs" won't just be focus trees, they'll add 3D models and other content as well. The 3D models alone make them harder to create as mods. Look at the Poland DLC and what it adds to the game:

So, what does it contain?

• Focus tree.
• 2D art for tanks & planes, complete with flavor names.
• 2D art for ministers, generals and country leaders.
• 3D art for infantry and some more well known tanks and planes
• Some achievements & events.

Also, PDX DLCs, with some exceptions, have pretty much always are a case of "don't want it, don't buy it". I probably won't buy, say, an India DLC unless it's on sale or becomes part of a bundle, but a DLC fleshing out Scandinavia and maybe the other Nordic countries, with national focus trees, new units, models, and artwork, events such as the foundation of NORTRASHIP, and possibly a new mechanic or two? Take my money.

What will be the stance of PDS against a mod that replicates focus trees added by DLCs, will they take it down then?

Again: no. Of course not. That'd be ridiculous. Should you actually seriously worry about this, you'll be happy to hear that it has been confirmed by Podcat that they won't do this.


edit: As a side note, I imagine another argument for picking PDX mods will be cohesion. If I choose to buy separe DLCs fleshing out minors, there's a chance they'll end up not working well with each others due to balance and such. Sure, modders will eventually band together and make bigger "mod bundles" that combined smaller ones, but until then, DLCs might be your best bet.

 

[Revy]

You do realize games arent made for free right? and that adding in a focus tree for every nation would take years and we'd never see the game released if they did it for launch. i'd rather have a game that is fun and released now and buy focus tree dlc then wait 6 years for a game that would end up canceled because devopment took to long.

 

[xtfoster]

Again: no. Of course not. That'd be ridiculous. Should you actually seriously worry about this, you'll be happy to hear that it has been confirmed by Podcat that they won't do this.

Actually, what Podcat said was that they wouldn't ban people from creating NF mods. It sounds like what the poster was asking is that if someone created a mod that duplicates an already released PDS NF DLC would it be taken down. And in that case I can almost guarantee you that the answer is yes (probably along with legal action). The point being that that would be an attempt to circumvent copyright.

 

[MrNewVegas]

We've already been through this in this thread. Even if they released DLCs that were only focus trees, which they probably won't, focus trees actually take more time and effort than just coding, because of research, brainstorming, testing, balancing, and so on.

Tell the researchers that they have done 'little to no-work'
Tell the alpha/beta-testers that they have done 'little to no-work'
Tell the graphics designers that they have done 'little to no-work'

Are you seriously going to complain about them selling a DLC, which costs less than a kid's meal at a fast food restaurant (and is not required to play the game*)

Remember PDS's official stance on DLC (at least how I remember it).
DLC - Graphics changes, minor other changes, no major gameplay changes - Not required to play the game (even in MP - In MP what DLC is used is based on the host's setup, all other players get a temporary copy of the DLC for that MP session).
Expansion - Major gameplay changes - Required to play the game for that content.

Does nobody actually read what I say?
IMPLEMENTATION IS PURE SCRIPT WORK.
Anyone can copy something that took them three months to make in five minutes, freely, cheaply and without any kind of restriction (indeed, they encourage modding, and for good reason)
So they won't ever sell nation DLC like that, or put focus trees as a main standpoint
EDIT: Here's a question though, if someone removes the mod from the workshop, does it get deleted from the computers of the people who subbed?

 

[xtfoster]

Anyone can copy something that took them three months to make in five minutes, freely, cheaply and without any kind of restriction (indeed, they encourage modding, and for good reason)

I can GUARANTEE YOU that if someone were to do this, not only would it be swiftly removed, its creator and poster would probably be served with copyright infringement notices swiftly.

 

[griffor]

Does nobody actually read what I say?
IMPLEMENTATION IS PURE SCRIPT WORK.
Anyone can copy something that took them three months to make in five minutes, freely, cheaply and without any kind of restriction (indeed, they encourage modding, and for good reason)
So they won't ever sell nation DLC like that, or put focus trees as a main standpoint
EDIT: Here's a question though, if someone removes the mod from the workshop, does it get deleted from the computers of the people who subbed?

steam workshop isn't kind to people who violation copyright content they take your steam account after to many tos violations.