Paradox should avoid selling focus trees as DLC

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Krafty

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What does Paradox care if people hate it or not. I dislike their DLC policy, but Ive been known to buy them. That makes me part of the problem, for sure, but it illustrates that our like, or dislike, does not come into it. As long as it sells, it would be fine by any company's standard.

They do it because it makes them more money. They don;t make this much DLC, because they 'have' to.

Why would a consumer based company care if people hate their product and services? No idea.

Why would a restaurant care if people hate their food?

If people hate something, it isnt selling well. Thats the entire point of this point isnt it? Theres another thread detailing why this game is doing bad in sales.
 
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Maizel

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What it has to do with your post is that imo you are being more paranoid then sceptical of their DLC policy, equally though as it appears you are thinking im being naive i think we're both looking at it from two exactly opposite positions.
now you make a good point, paradox is and remains a company, money is what its all about.
But one should keep in mind that just making more and more things to spend money on isnt always the way to go, making sure you have a good dedicated community and maintaining it with good DLC policy would ensure a more long term profit.
Now the issue is that I dont know the stats, maybe the marketing department is seeing that their fanbase is so gullible they can make them pay for anything, no idea... I'm just being baselessly optimistic as I haven't been backstabbed yet by paradox.

It's all conjecture, for sure. But as to get back on topic. Do you really believe the price of the Major DLC will be lowered to compensate for the introduction of national ideas as DLC? I don't .


And well, I think the Paradox playerbase is very loyal already. Too much so, in my opinion. This is the only place on the internet I've seen so many people defend a company so vigorously. It's quite strange, I find.



If people hate something, it isnt selling well. Thats the entire point of this point isnt it?.

That´s a non sequitur. Stuff that people hate does not necessarily sell badly.
 
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Krafty

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Besides Phillip Morris, I dont think theres a legitimate case of any marketing department in the history of mankind openly discussing "Hey our customers are idiots! who cares what they think!"

We want to believe that companies are inherently immoral, but thats not true. Paradox of all people being immoral is kind of silly. Theyre going to ban discussion of certain immoral topics, but then themselves try and dupe you?

I dont like the slew of DLC anymore than the next guy. I dont like waiting 45 minutes to get my oil changed. But unless I want to code games myself, or change my own oil, thats just the reality of it. They have to sell DLCs to make up for the fact that market has kept game prices low.

They have to pay for DRM now days just because Pirates, but if they raise the cost of their game without adding more "perceived" content for it within the base game, customers will flip out.

If they charge 75 dollars for a base game, 95 for the slightly better, and 125 for the cosmetic stuff, they probably wont be in business very long. But if they dole out more content for 5-15 dollars here and there, theyll eventually get their 95 dollar game. Which is what they should actually cost.
 

Krafty

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And its basing that claim on faulty information.


Faulty reasoning and conclusion.

The guys data is spot on. Its not selling well on Steam, but theres reasons for that. Like Total Warhammer, Stellaris, Steam Sale, lack of hype, etc.
 
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rutger9

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How can you conclude the game isn't selling well without having full sales statistics, that's a conclusion based on incomplete information no matter how you spin it.
 

Ricox

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Who says most modders are modding for free?

Most importantly youre building a portfolio of your work for future employment, or to show clients, or for donations, to get stream viewers, or blog readers, etc. Very few people are doing it entirely for free out of the kindness of their hearts.

Your arrogance and jumping to conclusions about how modders handle it, are getting annoying.

Go ahead and show me the modder working 24/7 and able to provide the same expertise that a game developing company with professional competency will.

Admit it, you've lost this, your arguments are terrible and I don't even see your relevance to the Paradox modding scene in the first place (you have a single title registered to your account, a title that hasn't even come out yet). Have you gone around interviewing every modder that you would now have all this knowledge (most of which, by the way, is incorrect and just your baseless fantasies)?

There's a few major mods for every Paradox title that would classify as a major project that could be even worth considering adding on a resume, and these projects have the involvement of a relatively very low number of modders compared to the general population (not to mention that anyone can be a modder in Paradox titles, it's so easy to get into it, I've been modding all my PI games for years, adding new events, decisions, modifying game parameters etc. in order to make my experience more personalized & more enjoyable, even worked on 2 projects (I would say they're major, invested at least a dozen hours in each, everything from major event chains to adding simple mechanics/flavor etc. based from the systems that are softcoded/accessible through game files) that I later abandoned because I couldn't be arsed finishing them & doing maintenance, plus one of them was for EU III which mostly died with EU IV).

Not even a gaming company is going to care much for the experience of "creating a small historical events package for my native country in a game using such a simple scripting language that anyone who knows English can get the basics" (OK, this seems like an a-hole statement and I apologize, you know I don't mean it in an offensive way, it's actually a compliment to Paradox titles for how easy they make modding, advanced modding is much more complicated, but making events is not advanced modding). Maybe if you knew anything about modding Paradox games you would know the simple fact that most people just do it for themselves and others, and have no higher interest in it besides having a more enjoyable, modded game experience.

Seriously, who do you think you are? Your arrogance is showing in every single sentence you post on these forums. You seem like a bad human being, thinking that people only mod for some selfish gain, especially even mentioning the donations part. I would be a hypocrite if I went more on about your cynicism since I have a bit of it myself, but this is just uncalled for.
 
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adil3tr

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I appreciate Paradox making the Polish DLC, but I think that Paradox should stick to adding mechanics for the paid DLC since only they can do that. Modders can't really add in split ideological states, espionage systems, more secret weapons, an early UN, revolts, simultaneous focuses,and all kind of other things like that. Only paradox can. I'm sure there will be committed modders making national focus trees. But I will happily hand over my cash for new things I can do in the game more than I would for art and flavor/focus content, especially since we can add models now.
 
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adil3tr

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The devs have already said that national focus trees are some of the most time intensive things to build compared to things like cosmetic DLC. Sure, building a tree is super quick. Building a good and *balanced* tree takes a much much longer time. Most mods are going to be quickly made and poorly tested, and as a result will be much too strong or much too weak.

the national focuses will be in packs that contain cosmetic dlc as well as events specific to the country in question as well. It will be a country or region pack. You get a lot of stuff in it, the national focus just happens to be the most expensive part to make.

This seems like a reason not to. Is having Czech flavoring more important than new features?
 

adil3tr

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The devs have already said that national focus trees are some of the most time intensive things to build compared to things like cosmetic DLC. Sure, building a tree is super quick. Building a good and *balanced* tree takes a much much longer time. Most mods are going to be quickly made and poorly tested, and as a result will be much too strong or much too weak.

the national focuses will be in packs that contain cosmetic dlc as well as events specific to the country in question as well. It will be a country or region pack. You get a lot of stuff in it, the national focus just happens to be the most expensive part to make.

This seems like a reason not to. Is having Czech flavoring more important than cool new features?
 

Sinbuster

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I am very curious to see how Paradox maintains balance. Presumably balancing gets more difficult the more country-specific DLC are released. It needs to be balanced for those with vanilla + Poland, then vanilla + Poland and vanilla + Poland + China (let's just say), then vanilla + Poland and vanilla + Poland + China and vanilla + Poland + China + Canada (again, just for examples sake). Sounds like a mess.

But are people actually surprised by this DLC model? I'm no Colombo but wasn't this blindingly obvious the moment HOI4 was announced?
 

Lemont Elwood

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Seriously? National Foci are one of the best things Paradox could bundle with DLCs to give them a main selling point.

Like, for example, there could be a DLC that includes improved guerilla warfare and strategic bombing, and it would be marketed as Spanish Civil War DLC with a Nationalist/Republican Spain National Foci.
 
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griffor

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Faulty reasoning and conclusion.

The guys data is spot on. Its not selling well on Steam, but theres reasons for that. Like Total Warhammer, Stellaris, Steam Sale, lack of hype, etc.

how is his saying it is in 300 in sales when it sits at 45 on my list of top sellers, that for 1 leads to the claims of faulty info and being a troll thread as no real research was done
 
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adam_grif

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Selling focus trees as individual DLC would be absolutely terrible, but having them bundled with region focussed DLC would make sense, i.e. PRC and ROC get unique national focuses as part of a china-region focussed DLC that also adds a few other things that help the game model the second Sino-Japanese war more accurately. Preferably as part of the "Free Update" but it depends on mechanics changes - some national focuses might only make sense in the context of having DLC features unlocked. Otoh that may never come up as an issue.

What I really want to kill is unit packs, because they clutter up the storefront DLC page something chronic and it looks super intimidating to new players on steam.
 
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MrNewVegas

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Seriously? National Foci are one of the best things Paradox could bundle with DLCs to give them a main selling point.

Like, for example, there could be a DLC that includes improved guerilla warfare and strategic bombing, and it would be marketed as Spanish Civil War DLC with a Nationalist/Republican Spain National Foci.
National focuses are never going to be implemented as a standalone DLC, and will probably never become a main event in a DLC pack for a couple of reasons:
1. They're never going to be able to make anything that modders won't have made about five minutes out the door, or at least, they won't be able to make anything that is better than a mod to such a degree that it's worth buying the DLC
2. National focus trees are purely script work, as far as their implementation is concerned. I've never done any modding, but I assume that adding them in is as simple as changing a .txt or following a tutorial about modding in an event. This is too easy for ne'er-do-wells to copy, and so it doesn't make any sense for a business standpoint.
Selling focus trees as individual DLC would be absolutely terrible, but having them bundled with region focussed DLC would make sense, i.e. PRC and ROC get unique national focuses as part of a china-region focussed DLC that also adds a few other things that help the game model the second Sino-Japanese war more accurately. Preferably as part of the "Free Update" but it depends on mechanics changes - some national focuses might only make sense in the context of having DLC features unlocked. Otoh that may never come up as an issue.

What I really want to kill is unit packs, because they clutter up the storefront DLC page something chronic and it looks super intimidating to new players on steam.
Yep, unit packs are pretty cancerous stuff.
 
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SaydaNeen

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Honestly I don't think that they would release a DLC labelling it about the focus tree it would be a combination of things, for example adding espionage, a couple more diplomacy options, balancing issues and a focus tree. It wouldn't be JUST a focus tree but I can see them being implemented through dlc yes. And it makes sense to. Because anyone who buys the game a year down the road doesn't want to search the endless workshop items to try to find a focus tree for Finland.
 

MrNewVegas

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Honestly I don't think that they would release a DLC labelling it about the focus tree it would be a combination of things, for example adding espionage, a couple more diplomacy options, balancing issues and a focus tree. It wouldn't be JUST a focus tree but I can see them being implemented through dlc yes. And it makes sense to. Because anyone who buys the game a year down the road doesn't want to search the endless workshop items to try to find a focus tree for Finland.
Wouldn't you just search "National focus tree Finland" and get the best one straight away?
 

SaydaNeen

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Wouldn't you just search "National focus tree Finland" and get the best one straight away?
True, but there is a lot of garbage sometimes. I personally think they should be apart of HOI IV not a mod for it.
 

griffor

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National focuses are never going to be implemented as a standalone DLC, and will probably never become a main event in a DLC pack for a couple of reasons:
1. They're never going to be able to make anything that modders won't have made about five minutes out the door, or at least, they won't be able to make anything that is better than a mod to such a degree that it's worth buying the DLC
2. National focus trees are purely script work, as far as their implementation is concerned. I've never done any modding, but I assume that adding them in is as simple as changing a .txt or following a tutorial about modding in an event. This is too easy for ne'er-do-wells to copy, and so it doesn't make any sense for a business standpoint.

Yep, unit packs are pretty cancerous stuff.

if you feel that way and think mods are better than don't buy the dlc just use mods. The great thing about capitalism is choices in what to spend your money on