Paradox should avoid selling focus trees as DLC

[shihongyi88]

From a company and fan standpoint doing so would be a bad idea.

1. National focus trees are purely a scripting job that any mod can (and probably make) and fans are unlikely to buy such low effort add-ons.

2. To prevent competition with such dlc Paradox would have to start banning purely scripting mods would sets a bad precedence and would endanger good will with the modding community.

 

[Anjou Poiters]

Is this a for sure fact that they would sell National Focus trees as separate DLC? In my mind the National Focus tree of a country in HOI4 is no different then a countries National Ideas in EU4. Which I imagine where the idea came from. So far in EU4 they have not once made those a separate on their own DLC. They were all included within one of their mechanic expansion DLC's... Which I am perfectly all for them to just do what they do with EU4, If you don't buy the expansion then you get generic National Focuses. But if they start selling them off as $5-$10 country National Focuse Packs along side their normal Expansions then I will indeed have an issue. Those types of packs in my mind should aways be what they have been purely cosmetic models and events.

 

[deadmancomand]

While I want most things HoI4 to be as widespread as possible, the amount of balancing and QA that needs to go into the NF trees is surprisingly large. Especially when most countries outside of the announced 8 NF trees didn't have their own equipment, nor as large of a role in the war. Just making up 50+ new ideas is hard enough...

 

[Fenian]

I disagree - i think while it might be easy to mod national focuses I think the effort is in maintaining game balance when creating these. I would happily pay small DLC fees for a properly tested and balanced national focus tree for a nation I am interested in playing. I also suspect that Paradox wont be selling just the focus tree, I suspect nation specific art and models will accompany the trees.

 

[Anjou Poiters]

I disagree - i think while it might be easy to mod national focuses I think the effort is in maintaining game balance when creating these. I would happily pay small DLC fees for a properly tested and balanced national focus tree for a nation I am interested in playing. I also suspect that Paradox wont be selling just the focus tree, I suspect nation specific art and models will accompany the trees.

That I would be perfectly fine with, aslong as its not the Notional Focuse tree by them selves. Combining them with the normally large amount of cosmetic models or atleast new events that come with Paradox games would be fine with me. While I know they have stated NF take allot of work in balancing and researching takes up allot of time and money. But I as a consumer only get what I can see, I don't see those poor souls slaving away with life less eyes over a keyboard.. I just see fancy icons and with letters and numbers. Which as you know is what 95% of all the people that buy this game will see as well. They want to pay for what they can see and if they can't see much you know there going to whine about it like I do.

 

[Maizel]

I agree with OP. Cosemtics DLC is fine, even though I still feel a bit milked when I pay 20 bucks for an expansion, which does not include the cosmetic stuff that gets released along side it. But I get it; it doesn't add anything to the game but cosmetics, they are not very expensive. They are optional without missing out gameplay wise when not buying them. I think it's petty, but I'm okay with that.

Selling Focus trees as DLC is a big step beyond that in my opinion. The difference in the options you get, which have a big impact on gameplay, seem pretty major when using the Poland one, as an example, compared to the generic one.

Paradox introduced legion of DLC with all their games since CK2. For the most part they have walked the line pretty well, regarding what things to release as expansions, and separate DLC. Ideally, I would have liked the focus tree to get filled in over the years for free in the patches. An acceptable compromise for me would have been to fill in the generic focus trees over the years as part of the big expansions. Selling them mostly as separate DLC or bundled with cosmetics, I don;t want, crosses the line for me, personally, to start feeling like I'm trying to be milked for my pennies, and that HoI4, more than any other Pdox game before it, has been made as a vessel to earn many times again the price of the game by selling ungodly amounts of DLC, both cosmetic DLC, and parts of the game mechanics.

I find having only 8 focus trees, Which are a central feature of the game, a bit light, seeing it is the deciding factor in the distinction between the nations you play. It is a central part of the game they will most likely will try to make us pay dearly for. It just feels wrong to me, and a big step backwards compared to what Paradox used to do.

 

[Shock360]

I want dev made ones that are guaranteed to be awesome and official. Also to any questioning it, they confirmed they will be selling these in a different thread

 

[Axe99]

From a company and fan standpoint doing so would be a bad idea.

1. National focus trees are purely a scripting job that any mod can (and probably make) and fans are unlikely to buy such low effort add-ons.

2. To prevent competition with such dlc Paradox would have to start banning purely scripting mods would sets a bad precedence and would endanger good will with the modding community.

Work is work, and when it comes to scripting and the like, a lot of the work is in research and balancing. Sure, anyone could do it, but very few can (and will) do it to the level Paradox do. Personally, I'm very happy with Paradox selling focus trees, although my preference would be:

- Keep the gameplay-changing material (like focus trees) separate from music or model packs.
- Bundle things together - so a few focus trees together, rather than 20 different $1-2 individual focus trees (I'm not suggesting PDS would do this, just mentioning it's not my preference).

On the second point, I highly doubt Paradox will block modders from creating their own focus trees. In the recent modding streams, they showed us how to make basic NF trees.

 

[Bridger15]

The devs have already said that national focus trees are some of the most time intensive things to build compared to things like cosmetic DLC. Sure, building a tree is super quick. Building a good and *balanced* tree takes a much much longer time. Most mods are going to be quickly made and poorly tested, and as a result will be much too strong or much too weak.

the national focuses will be in packs that contain cosmetic dlc as well as events specific to the country in question as well. It will be a country or region pack. You get a lot of stuff in it, the national focus just happens to be the most expensive part to make.

 

[GhengisKhan]

From a company and fan standpoint doing so would be a bad idea.

1. National focus trees are purely a scripting job that any mod can (and probably make) and fans are unlikely to buy such low effort add-ons.

Much like the Poland DLC i doubt it would be just a focus tree. It's also 2D art and some 3D models and maybe some generals and research companies etc. The tree's take a ton of balancing so i don't see an issue with this. And the art and models are always good in my opinion.

2. To prevent competition with such dlc Paradox would have to start banning purely scripting mods would sets a bad precedence and would endanger good will with the modding community.

Why would they have to ban anything? Competition is always good and nothing is stopping you from using whichever one you want.

 

[Cheesecakeczar]

Focus trees will impact a significant portion of the game. I'd rather trust that to developers than to modders. Besides, they will likely work the same way as the Poland DLC in that you'll be getting plenty of cosmetic features along with it.

 

[Maizel]

Much like the Poland DLC i doubt it would be just a focus tree. It's also 2D art and some 3D models and maybe some generals and research companies etc. The tree's take a ton of balancing so i don't see an issue with this. And the art and models are always good in my opinion.

This would be even worse than selling focus trees outside of the main expansions. I don;t give a rat's ass about the models. But if they really, really háve to milk me to to get a big feature of the game, I wouldn;t want the price to be padded by stuff I don't want.

Focus trees will impact a significant portion of the game..

I agree, It's a major thing of the game. Having only 8 in the base game and the fact they will charge us for all the remaining ones rubs me the complete wrong way.

 

[GhengisKhan]

This would be even worse than selling focus trees outside of the main expansions. I don;t give a rat's ass about the models. But if they really, really háve to milk me to to get a big feature of the game, I wouldn;t want the price to be padded by stuff I don't want.

They've already stated its highly likely they would do them in regions and not one country at a time. I'm not sure what to tell you if you don't want to use a paid for NF tree and could care less about the other stuff don't buy it and use a modded one.

 

[Maizel]

They've already stated its highly likely they would do them in regions and not one country at a time. I'm not sure what to tell you if you don't want to use a paid for NF tree and could care less about the other stuff don't buy it and use a modded one.

I said nowhere I don't want to use them. I'm saying I find it a bad direction to sell a major feature of the game at a premium, in a dozen little pieces. And that, if they absolutely have to, I would have preferred to get the Focus trees separately.

 

[GhengisKhan]

So you'd prefer they sell them as single small DLC then?

 

[Dichologos]

Your argument is that DLC along the lines of focus trees will be redundant due to mods, as far as I understand it.

Unfortunately, "all" DLC ever made can be argued against along the same lines. Game mods for entire total conversions sometimes have enough work put into them to shame developers for certain games, and sometimes have more content and polish than actual developer content.

However, some of us want to play the "official" content that was made and balanced by the original developers. Some of us also want to financially support them for their hard work. This doesn't mean we can't play mods, or even use modded focus trees - but if they do release focus tree DLC and the price is right, I can't see any reason why I would not buy it.

Edit: In fact, the developers allowing us to even mod many things that might cause competition with their own DLC is "more" reason why I think they should be supported as developers.

 

[Maizel]

So you'd prefer they sell them as single small DLC then?

If they are dead set on selling game mechanics as DLC, yes I would [refer them being seperated from cosmetics that I don't need.

 

[dannyevilcat]

Focus trees will impact a significant portion of the game. I'd rather trust that to developers than to modders. Besides, they will likely work the same way as the Poland DLC in that you'll be getting plenty of cosmetic features along with it.

I know this maybe isn't the popular opinion, and I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions, but I don't trust mods at all for this kind of thing. As I've matured as a gamer, I've grown increasingly skeptical about using any non-graphics mods, and If Paradox were to not offer focus trees for non-majors, I wouldn't be able to enjoy them, because I wouldn't be using them. Plus, as has been mentioned, they will also come with new unit sprites. It's only been a month, so hopefully the quality will increase, but looking at the Steam workshop for Stellaris, it pretty much all looks poor, or has some good stuff that is either watered down with amateur-looking extras or seem incomplete.

About the only mod I'll be looking for, is one that overhauls the supply/fuel system, and even then, it will depend on whether the AI will be able to use it properly.

 

[GhengisKhan]

If they are dead set on selling game mechanics as DLC, yes I would [refer them being seperated from cosmetics that I don't need.

The only problem i see with that is the game having 200 different DLC packs after only a year. Seems like that kind of granularity would be very hard to manage and confusing for the customer.

I personally would like to see fewer DLC with big content updates.

 

[LordOfWar16]

You seem to forget that it is not only about simply scripting some random National Focuses. It is also about alot of research done to find something worth putting into the game and balancing it. You dont only have the scripters that make the focuses. You also have the researchers that search for content for the national focus trees and of course the QA testers to test them to ensure it is balanced and working propperly.

Dont get me wrong, i dont want to have to buy like 50 individual dlc's for the full game aswell, but they said alot of them would most likely be bundled into packs and that some might come with expansions. In the end the pricing is the important part of course. You could also always hold of on nation packs that you might not play that often for a sale for example.