Paradox... please ...

[slime1]

You answered the question in your first sentence. But if I elaborate - first of all, you don't know how efficient the beta testing was, only Paradox knows. Second, you can't prove that it's the most polished EU4 patch on release either, because your experience can differ from someone elses (also - recency and confirmation bias) and there's no mathematical or scientific way to measure how polished a patch is except to count bugs (which wouldn't really cover how "game-breaking" a bug is, just the number of bugs), and obviously a major update will have more room for error than a minor one.

That's only one point actually, you are saying that I can't proof 11.3 after beta being more polished than 1.14 on release. (Because if you took that for granted, that's quite good proof for efficient beta testing). Well, I can't. It's just my feeling and the feeling of a couple of people here.

But I would like to hear the opinion on this from paradox. Maybe they share your opinion or have data on it, that the 1.14 release was actually super-bug free and we are all just (recency-)biased. Then please tell us (Because I cant't believe that but am always open to proof) ! Otherwise, what's the problem with the beta-testing approach?

 

[Tacticus101]

Really ?

1.14 came along with the Cossacks DLC which some of us actually bought and the free features are

1.13 came after Common Sense so it was a stand alone patch and the beta release was great.

The Cossacks DLC could have been released 2 weeks after a 1.14 beta (free features) release and so major bugs could have been fixed by the time Cossacks went live (yes, that could have meant a 2 week delay for Cossacks but why not?)

And all the bugs that are because of Cossacks? Or the ones introduced by some of the other bug solutions? I am inclined to believe Wiz when he says a Beta would not have been worth it. If you want to avoid the bugs, put off buying Cossacks for two weeks (as you suggest) and play on the old patch for a bit. Treat the first period after the release as a Beta and you get exactly what you want.

 

[zamieo]

That's only one point actually, you are saying that I can't proof 11.3 after beta being more polished than 1.14 on release. (Because if you took that for granted, that's quite good proof for efficient beta testing). Well, I can't. It's just my feeling and the feeling of a couple of people here.

But I would like to hear the opinion on this from paradox. Maybe they share your opinion or have data on it, that the 1.14 release was actually super-bug free and we are all just (recency-)biased. Then please tell us (Because I cant't believe that but am always open to proof) ! Otherwise, what's the problem with the beta-testing approach?

No, they are two separate points. You don't know how efficient the beta testing was and you can't prove that 1.13 was more polished than any other patch (especially minor patches). Even if it was the most polished patch it could have been due to efficient QA work rather than due to the beta testing.

Where did I claim that 1.14 was "super bug-free"? From what I can tell on the forums, a lot of people have experienced plenty of bugs. Now, I personally haven't, but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of bugs. And I'm not opposed to a beta at all, I just doubt that a beta would magically fix every bug out there.

 

[Apollyonna]

Difference is that I already paid for Cossacks so I should be able to play without major bugs.

Minor bugs I can live with. If they had said: pay now and expect to play in 2 weeks, then it would be a different story. I never pre-order games so I would still be at 1.13.2

Releasing a major new expansion with major bugs that have been found is not the first time it has happened. You would think at one point they they would come up with a different way of doing things to ensure much more solid versions.

At the very least, if you release a beta version of something, you know it is going to likely have bugs and you can then decide to either be part of the free bugfinding mission, or stay with an older version. With Common Sense and now Cossacks, you pay for the luxury of not being able to play properly in several instances (not saying everyone has all the problems described in the bug reports) or pay for the luxury to have it but going back to a previous patch level.

Is that such a great idea ?

 

[slime1]

Treat the first period after the release as a Beta and you get exactly what you want.

Well, no. I bought the cossacks and expect a working product.

Let me make it clear, I really like paradox games and even though I don't like their DLC pricing policy I bought most DLCs day 1, because the are worth it for me. But if they continue to be totally bugged day 1 I might well consider buying them a little later, discounted and polished, even though I would prefer to buy day 1 polished and for full price. I think that would be good for both paradox and me, so I'm posting those suggestions.

But maybe paradox knows that the likes of me will buy day 1 and undiscounted anyway, because they like their games so much. That might work economically for some time...

 

[seriousgigi]

@Wiz

are you doing sth to fix this bug? lots of patches and dlcs came but it still happens. even in ddrjake's game!

 

[Apollyonna]

Well, no. I bought the cossacks and expect a working product.

Let me make it clear, I really like paradox games and even though I don't like their DLC pricing policy I bought most DLCs day 1, because the are worth it for me. But if they continue to be totally bugged day 1 I might well consider buying them a little later, discounted and polished, even though I would prefer to buy day 1 polished and for full price. I think that would be good for both paradox and me, so I'm posting those suggestions.

But maybe paradox knows that the likes of me will buy day 1 and undiscounted anyway, because they like their games so much. That might work economically for some time...

I am considering exactly what you are saying. Staying away from fresh new DLCs and wait for big discounts after it is working fine for others.

 

[delpiero1234]

I am considering exactly what you are saying. Staying away from fresh new DLCs and wait for big discounts after it is working fine for others.

Thesw "comments " have been posted after every DLC, yet you guys who are complaining are still buying the DLCs when new ones come out. Just a lot of talk..

 

[slime1]

Thesw "comments " have been posted after every DLC, yet you guys who are complaining are still buying the DLCs when new ones come out. Just a lot of talk..

Never posted any complaints after a DLC, always hoped they would learn from their errors and 1.13 with it's beta was a huge improvement. And, of course, you are (partially) right, paradox won't loose all (or even a lot) of its day 1 purchasers. That's why I said that their strategy might work economically quite well.

 

[blackchoas]

So, if PDX tests all its features prior to release then how come that all these interface issues exist in patch 1.14 and 1.14.1? It appears to me that these were not tested because quite frankly, it is easy to notice that they are not working as designed.

except that a lot of interface issues are the product of things for individual computers, I suffer various interface bugs myself but I play on a rather crappy laptop with a small screen, and its unrealistic to expect that Paradox is able to test and make sure there are no UI issues on all possible computer configurations that could play the game

I also feel like this thread has no idea what a "major" bug is. Every single bug I have seen or heard about in this patch is minor at best, a major bug would make the game literally unplayable and that just isn't the case here, you wanna talk about major bugs, lets talk about CK2 for like half of last year. This roll out has been pretty smooth.

 

[Lapoleon]

How would a beta period for DLC even work? Does everybody wait for the DLC to be released, except for a minor group? Then you still won't find all bugs. Does everybody who wants to play the DLC get to play the beta? That would probably be 80% of the forum population, so the beta launch basically becomes the official launch.

 

[slime1]

How would a beta period for DLC even work? Does everybody wait for the DLC to be released, except for a minor group? Then you still won't find all bugs. Does everybody who wants to play the DLC get to play the beta? That would probably be 80% of the forum population, so the beta launch basically becomes the official launch.

That's what a lot of other games with a dedicated player base do, i.e. all the Blizzard games (Diablo III...). Works great there. Of course they are not bug-free on release, but a lot better.

And thereis a difference if you buy a DLC and have a mandatory update and get something buggy or if you opt-in a beta...

 

[Wizzington]

I really don't think anyone remembers Diablo III's launch for how smooth and problem-free it was.

 

[Cymsdale]

I really don't think anyone remembers Diablo III's launch for how smooth and problem-free it was.

I remember the problems being incredibly overblown.

 

[blackchoas]

I remember the problems being incredibly overblown.

just like how people are over blowing the problems with Cossocks?

 

[Apollyonna]

Thesw "comments " have been posted after every DLC, yet you guys who are complaining are still buying the DLCs when new ones come out. Just a lot of talk..

Well I did complain with Common Sense and wanted to get a refund, ended up not doing it. I only started playing with the Common Sense DLC about 2 months ago however.

I did now request a refund for Cossacks however.

 

[HHC_Glen]

@Wiz you have the most loyal fans in all the lands, just do closed beta for DLCs man.

 

[Apollyonna]

except that a lot of interface issues are the product of things for individual computers, I suffer various interface bugs myself but I play on a rather crappy laptop with a small screen, and its unrealistic to expect that Paradox is able to test and make sure there are no UI issues on all possible computer configurations that could play the game

I also feel like this thread has no idea what a "major" bug is. Every single bug I have seen or heard about in this patch is minor at best, a major bug would make the game literally unplayable and that just isn't the case here, you wanna talk about major bugs, lets talk about CK2 for like half of last year. This roll out has been pretty smooth.

just like how people are over blowing the problems with Cossocks?

I am not sure what you consider major..

For me they are:
- Game crashes for no apparent reasons (for some apparently very frequent)
- Deleted saves, even in the hotfix (yes, happened to me and no backup copy was saved as was announced in the hotfix patch note)

These are a little more than minor bugs

If you have not heard of more bugs, then please go visit the Bug Report part of the forum, you will find 'a few' more issues than are highlighted in the main forum.

How would a beta period for DLC even work? Does everybody wait for the DLC to be released, except for a minor group? Then you still won't find all bugs. Does everybody who wants to play the DLC get to play the beta? That would probably be 80% of the forum population, so the beta launch basically becomes the official launch.

Not sure if you were referring to me or in general. I never proposed a beta for the DLC but for the main patch (free features as Paradox would like to call them) as it also displays a lot of the same bugs and are not DLC related.

 

[slime1]

I really don't think anyone remembers Diablo III's launch for how smooth and problem-free it was.

Sure not. They've fucked up many times. The point is that beta testing considerably improves patches in many cases. It doesn't make them bug free nor does it work every time.

But I do not need to further this discussion... I (and some others on thes forums) just made the suggestion to use the 1.13 beta testing on upcoming DLCs, because we think it worked well. There has been no answer to why paradox disagrees. Just the usual polemic answers. That's fine though. It's paradox' decision alone and they are not obliged to answer to anybody.

 

[blackchoas]

I am not sure what you consider major..

For me they are:
- Game crashes for no apparent reasons (for some apparently very frequent)
- Deleted saves, even in the hotfix (yes, happened to me and no backup copy was saved as was announced in the hotfix patch note)

These are a little more than minor bugs

If you have not heard of more bugs, then please go visit the Bug Report part of the forum, you will find 'a few' more issues than are highlighted in the main forum.



Not sure if you were referring to me or in general. I never proposed a beta for the DLC but for the main patch (free features as Paradox would like to call them) as it also displays a lot of the same bugs and are not DLC related.

game crashes for no apparent reason, for a small minority of players, and given the millions of different possible system set ups you could play the game with I don't think its a major thing that this happens for a small number of people and that it wasn't caught before hand since its likely an issue that simply would not occur on the computers they use at their office. It sucks that the game isn't working for you but I don't think very specific cases of game crashing qualify as a major bug since it clearly works just fine for the majority of players. If the majority or even a larger minority suffered this bug I would consider it major but given the volume of out cry over it on these forums it seems to be a rather small minority