actually its not that farfetched, as sejong's grandfather, the founder of josun was practically in an alience with jienzhou to an extent
also there might be some hope since they are revampng SEA next patch
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Paradox, please stop nerfing Korea.
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also there might be some hope since they are revampng SEA next patch
I think giving some more development to Korea will be enough. NI will be the one of the worst NI after SEA update but mission reward is quite good so i’m okay with that.
But Hangseong’s devlopment is ridiculous. Captial of bureaucratic nation is Worse than uncolonized taiwan and tribal siberian province now.
But Hangseong’s devlopment is ridiculous. Captial of bureaucratic nation is Worse than uncolonized taiwan and tribal siberian province now.
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Korea gets no notable permanent modifiers except the -5% dev cost modifier after taking Kyoto (half of what comes out of your typical NI anyways). The other two are not only mediocre modifiers, but come so late into the game that they are pretty much pointless (you would just swap to Manchu/Japan by then). Korea's NIs are probably the worst in the game for any "relevant" nation (basically not OPMs/random isolated natives) when you factor in the fact that they don't naturally form anything to relieve them.
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Notes and Wishes for 1.31
Notes and Wishes on the 1.31 patch
-10% development cost
-10% stability cost modifier
The Hangeul Alphabet
-10% tech cost
Geobukseon
+10% ship durability
+1 yearly naval tradition
The Hermit Kingdom
+20% fort defence
The Geojung'gi
-15% construction cost
The Kyujang'gak
-10% idea cost
The Gyeong'guk Daejeon
-1 national unrest
The Hwacha
+10% artillery combat ability
Ambition
+1 ruler administrative skill
A brief overview sees that most of the (numerous) generic modifiers that Korea had were all trashed. +10% tax, +10% production eff. +10% inf. CA, +10% manpower were all filler ideas that had no real relation to the history of Korea. They were instead replaced with ideas that are debatably balanced, but much more in line with Korean culture.
Korean traditions are now a 10% dev cost and stab cost modifier. The stab cost modifer, originally Korea's second idea, felt pretty historically accurate and balanced, hence trading out the odd +25% domestic trade power tradition. The 10% dev cost modifier is a new addition however that I originally contemplated on setting to 15%, but toned down to 10% (After all, only 2 nations in the game have -15% dev cost, Genoa and Australia).
The -10% idea cost, +10% ship durability and -15% (Originally 10%) construction cost modifier were all originally part of Korea's idea set, but I moved their places around a bit.
The Hangeul Alphabet is now probably the defining part of Korea's idea-set however. Reminescent of how the old Manchu ideas had the Manchu alphabet at -10% tech cost (Compared to Hangeul's -5%), Korea's first idea now actually does justice to the sheer innovativeness of the alphabet.
New additions include the +20% fort defence, +10% artillery combat ability and +1 ruler admin skill. Korea definitely did not have an impressive land army during EU4's timeline, thus their sole land army quality idea is +10% artillery CA, referencing the Hwacha. However Korea was notable in that it withstood multiple hard sieges from its invaders (Namhansanseong during the Manchurian invasion and Haengjusanseong during the Japanese one for example), which is represented by its new fort defence idea.
The ambition however I struggled to come up with. I wanted to represent Korea's top-heavy but meritocratic government, which led me to choose between -10% advisor cost, -20% advisor cost with ruler's culture and +1 ruler admin skill, but the new government reform in 1.31 tipped me over the edge in that having more advisor cost modifiers for Korea would make -90% too easy to reach.
- The new Confucian reforms apply only if the country's state religion is Confucian, or primary culture is Vietnamese. Hopefully a further possible condition of primary culture being Korean or in the Chinese group can be added.
- On a similar note, the Jianzhou/Geonju province modifier would work far better if the religious restrictions were removed. (Currently they only apply if the province owner is Confucian or Tengri) Baekdu Mountain has nothing to do with Confucianism; in fact its legends originate from Gojoseon, a dynasty that existed almost 2000 years before Confucius was even born.
- The (very controversial) moving of Vietnamese from the Southeast Asian culture group to the Chinese group is interesting. Moving Korean to the Chinese group outright wouldn't be that accurate, but a mid-game event that moves Korean to the Chinese group if it takes the Mandate could be interesting.
- The new tropical dev cost modifer is fixed, if Korea is to be handicapped by starting with 'Inwards Perfection', perhaps the dev cost reduction could be fixed to 20%, instead of scaling according to clergy land ownership.
- Seeing how the various nations in SEA recieved new ideas, Korea's could probably get touched up though.
-10% development cost
-10% stability cost modifier
The Hangeul Alphabet
-10% tech cost
Geobukseon
+10% ship durability
+1 yearly naval tradition
The Hermit Kingdom
+20% fort defence
The Geojung'gi
-15% construction cost
The Kyujang'gak
-10% idea cost
The Gyeong'guk Daejeon
-1 national unrest
The Hwacha
+10% artillery combat ability
Ambition
+1 ruler administrative skill
A brief overview sees that most of the (numerous) generic modifiers that Korea had were all trashed. +10% tax, +10% production eff. +10% inf. CA, +10% manpower were all filler ideas that had no real relation to the history of Korea. They were instead replaced with ideas that are debatably balanced, but much more in line with Korean culture.
Korean traditions are now a 10% dev cost and stab cost modifier. The stab cost modifer, originally Korea's second idea, felt pretty historically accurate and balanced, hence trading out the odd +25% domestic trade power tradition. The 10% dev cost modifier is a new addition however that I originally contemplated on setting to 15%, but toned down to 10% (After all, only 2 nations in the game have -15% dev cost, Genoa and Australia).
The -10% idea cost, +10% ship durability and -15% (Originally 10%) construction cost modifier were all originally part of Korea's idea set, but I moved their places around a bit.
The Hangeul Alphabet is now probably the defining part of Korea's idea-set however. Reminescent of how the old Manchu ideas had the Manchu alphabet at -10% tech cost (Compared to Hangeul's -5%), Korea's first idea now actually does justice to the sheer innovativeness of the alphabet.
New additions include the +20% fort defence, +10% artillery combat ability and +1 ruler admin skill. Korea definitely did not have an impressive land army during EU4's timeline, thus their sole land army quality idea is +10% artillery CA, referencing the Hwacha. However Korea was notable in that it withstood multiple hard sieges from its invaders (Namhansanseong during the Manchurian invasion and Haengjusanseong during the Japanese one for example), which is represented by its new fort defence idea.
The ambition however I struggled to come up with. I wanted to represent Korea's top-heavy but meritocratic government, which led me to choose between -10% advisor cost, -20% advisor cost with ruler's culture and +1 ruler admin skill, but the new government reform in 1.31 tipped me over the edge in that having more advisor cost modifiers for Korea would make -90% too easy to reach.
- Yi Hyang is probably never going to escape being a 2/1/1. RIP Munjong, finisher of the Yukjin conquest, inventor of the conventional Hwacha and reformer of the Korean army. Your sacrifice for the sake of 'game balance' will not be forgotten.
- Dai Viet will apparently get an event that gives it a cosmetic name change (Where they can change to Nam-yue or Vietnam) upon taking the Mandate. Perhaps Korea could recieve something similar too? Or maybe the restore Goguryeo mission could give Korea a cosmetic name change to Goguryeo or Balhae.
- Seeing how Dai Viet will get a permanent harmonisation speed boost, hopefully Confucianism could be touched over, or at the very least be allowed to culture convert harmonised provinces. (You'd be wasting one of Vietnam's ideas currently if you convert to Confucianism) Currently Confucianism is laughably awful, with it oftentimes having lower tolerance of the true faith than it does of heretics due to harmonising, meaning it's better to just completely ignore its mechanics than it is to use them. It's literally the only non-American religion that actively punishes you for using its mechanics. (At least the American pagans get great modifiers out of their reforms, confucianism gets shit like +5% production efficiency in exchange for -3 ToTf, -2 yearly legitimacy and +25% development cost).
fuckSoallmyhomieshateSoremoveSo- There have been rumours on the Siam node getting reworked (either getting divided, or at least not being a starting node anymore), hopefully the Nippon node (why is it called Nippon and not Japan?) can be worked on too. Currently it's the largest node in game by a pretty significant margin, having 9 more provinces than Girin, the second largest node. There's been plenty of suggestions on the reworking of East Asian trade nodes, hopefully one of them could be applied?
- Rework Korea's provinces maybe? The Manchu update left Korea in the dust, and now it has lower province density than Manchuria. Gangwha/Incheon, Gaegyeong, Anju, Dongnae and Chuncheon are all viable candidates to be added, or at the very least the states could be reworked. Western Korea, Southern Korea, and Eastern Korea? Might as well just rename all the states in Italy to Northern Italy, Slightly less Northern Italy, Central Italy, Central Italy but left, etc. It's not like the developers didn't know of the traditional Korean administrative divisions, considering how the Northern half of the peninsula is accurately stated into Pyeongan and Hamheung. It's just that for some odd reason, instead of using Hwanghae, Gyeonggi, Gangwon, Chungcheong, Jeolla and Gyeongsang, they divided the province borders awkwardly so that none of those could work.
- Hanseong 10 dev lol. Want to see how ridiculous this is? I can prove how stupid this is without even referencing Europe. Whangarei, an uncolonised province in New Zealand upon game-start, has 11 dev, 1 more than Hanseong. Whangarei in 2020 has less than half the population that Hanseong had back in 1821, endgame. Do you see how ridiculous a 10 dev Hanseong is now?
- Further notes on the rest of Korea being even lower dev. Gangneung, Jeju, Gyeongseong and Yukjin were apparently all complete wastelands devoid of life akin to Northern Siberia.
- The capital city of Hamheung is still Hamgyeong. I'm pretty sure this is because Paradox hasn't touched Korea in any meaningful way since 1.20 Mandate of Heaven.
- Han river estuary for Hanseong? (Or in Incheon if it's added)
- Loosen the requirements for the Hermit Kingdom mission. Currently it requires having 4 fortresses (level 8 forts), which are unlocked at mil tech 24, usually around the mid 1750's. Your game will most likely be done at that point, and a -15% fort maintenance modifier will not only last a fraction of your game, but also be mostly irrelevant at that point since A. High levels forts late game are useless , and B. Your finances will most likely not be a problem. Just making the requirements be 4 bastions (level 4 forts) would be enough, considering how Korea's garbage economy can't support the 3 level 2 forts that it starts with.
- Jurchen Yukjin is plausible, if you stretch historical records a bit. Jurchen Gyeongseong though? Why?
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Best way to describe him well is making his stats buff like 5/5/5 but making him die early like in history by disease.
When his father Yi do (Se-Jong) is at late age, Yi Hyang (Mun-jong) ruled country instead of his father and proved he is worthy son of the greatest king of korean history. But he died early by disease and left his young son Yi Hongwi (Dan-jong) alone.
I suggest series of events calling Coup in the Gyeyu Year/ Gyeyu Jeongnan (계유정난) for portraying it. This event was one of the biggest event of Joseon dynasty.
- Buff Yi hyang’s stats but Make Him die earlier by event (In 1452, he died at 38 yo, at 2 years of his reign in history)
- By event 1’s only option, Yi hyang’s young son Yi Hong-wi (Dan-jong) become heir at 12 yo with High legitimacy and general Kim Jongseo (aka. Tiger of the North) become his regent. (It will be more nice if Kim jongseo is described as general at the start of game. Stat will be like 3/4/3/1 because he did great job at conquering Yukjin & Gyeongseong and protecting it. if he is alive at event 1 time he become regent, if not Hwang Bo-in become regent. Hwang’s rank was higher than Kim but actual power was at Kim so i suggest making kim as regent first. Yi-hongwi’a stat is hard to determine because he died at young age. Maybe random stat will be better so player can choose sides by stat?)
- At next year of event 1, Coup of Grand prince Suyang (Yi Yu) event happens. It happens at Gyeyu year (1453) so it’s called Gyeyu Jeongnan. In history he killed Kim & Hwang and their entourage, and other powerful Grand prince Anpyeong too and became King known as Se-jo.
- Event 3 has two options. 1) Kill Kim & Hwang and make Suyang as regent. 2) Crush Suyang’s rebellion. It makes Suyang’s pretender rebel army is spawned at Hanseong. If player crush rebellion, series of events ends and make Yi hongwi as rightful king.
- Option 1 makes Suyang as regent, but when Yi hongwi become adult, new event happens. Suyang makes Homgwi to abdicate throne to suyang. So Suyang become King and Yi hongwi is dethroned. Suyang’s stat is around 3/3/3 and has low legitimacy.
- Option 1 increases Neo-confuican estate’s power and decrease advisor cost and increase harmonization speed but decreases maximum absolutism for rest of the game. Option 2 increasing Yangban estate’s power and gives monthly autonomy decrease and increases maximum absolutism but idea cost increase for rest of the game. Giving permanent bonus is because this event had big influence on Joseon’s history. Suyang’s reign was aimed at increasing royal authority and later Joseon kings always tried to strengthen their power. It was opposite way to confucian way to rule by advisors. Suyang also removed many systems of Se-jong including Hall of worthies (portraying it by increasing idea cost). So i think keep Hongwi makes Joseon as more confucian advisors centered country as alt history for contrast.
- After event 5, new event about killing Yi Hongwi happens. Confuicans who supports rightful Hongwi planned to make him as king again but plan was discovered. This kind of event happened twice in history but i think one time will be enough for game. Many confucians died because of this event and Hongwi himself died too. Only option is kill Confucians and Hongwi. (I think giving chance to Hongwi at event 3 is enough. His power was weak at this point.)
I have more ideas to improve these events but not sure paradox will visit poor Korea again. Sad
. I only hope for development increase for Hanseong now.- 3
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I actually suggested a event about this previously;Best way to describe him well is making his stats buff like 5/5/5 but making him die early like in history by disease.
When his father Yi do (Se-Jong) is at late age, Yi Hyang (Mun-jong) ruled country instead of his father and proved he is worthy son of the greatest king of korean history. But he died early by disease and left his young son Yi Hongwi (Dan-jong) alone.
I suggest series of events calling Coup in the Gyeyu Year/ Gyeyu Jeongnan (계유정난) for portraying it. This event was one of the biggest event of Joseon dynasty.
- Buff Yi hyang’s stats but Make Him die earlier by event (In 1452, he died at 38 yo, at 2 years of his reign in history)
- By event 1’s only option, Yi hyang’s young son Yi Hong-wi (Dan-jong) become heir at 12 yo with High legitimacy and general Kim Jongseo (aka. Tiger of the North) become his regent. (It will be more nice if Kim jongseo is described as general at the start of game. Stat will be like 3/4/3/1 because he did great job at conquering Yukjin & Gyeongseong and protecting it. if he is alive at event 1 time he become regent, if not Hwang Bo-in become regent. Hwang’s rank was higher than Kim but actual power was at Kim so i suggest making kim as regent first. Yi-hongwi’a stat is hard to determine because he died at young age. Maybe random stat will be better so player can choose sides by stat?)
- At next year of event 1, Coup of Grand prince Suyang (Yi Yu) event happens. It happens at Gyeyu year (1453) so it’s called Gyeyu Jeongnan. In history he killed Kim & Hwang and their entourage, and other powerful Grand prince Anpyeong too and became King known as Se-jo.
- Event 3 has two options. 1) Kill Kim & Hwang and make Suyang as regent. 2) Crush Suyang’s rebellion. It makes Suyang’s pretender rebel army is spawned at Hanseong. If player crush rebellion, series of events ends and make Yi hongwi as rightful king.
- Option 1 makes Suyang as regent, but when Yi hongwi become adult, new event happens. Suyang makes Homgwi to abdicate throne to suyang. So Suyang become King and Yi hongwi is dethroned. Suyang’s stat is around 3/3/3 and has low legitimacy.
- Option 1 increases Neo-confuican estate’s power and decrease advisor cost and increase harmonization speed but decreases maximum absolutism for rest of the game. Option 2 increasing Yangban estate’s power and gives monthly autonomy decrease and increases maximum absolutism but idea cost increase for rest of the game. Giving permanent bonus is because this event had big influence on Joseon’s history. Suyang’s reign was aimed at increasing royal authority and later Joseon kings always tried to strengthen their power. It was opposite way to confucian way to rule by advisors. Suyang also removed many systems of Se-jong including Hall of worthies (portraying it by increasing idea cost). So i think keep Hongwi makes Joseon as more confucian advisors centered country as alt history for contrast.
- After event 5, new event about killing Yi Hongwi happens. Confuicans who supports rightful Hongwi planned to make him as king again but plan was discovered. This kind of event happened twice in history but i think one time will be enough for game. Many confucians died because of this event and Hongwi himself died too. Only option is kill Confucians and Hongwi. (I think giving chance to Hongwi at event 3 is enough. His power was weak at this point.)
I have more ideas to improve these events but not sure paradox will visit poor Korea again. Sad
I'd say there should be a scripted event about the death of Munjong and the rise of Danjong/Sejo similar to the Granadan succession crisis.
I actually mentioned this in a previous suggestion here.
Revising Korea
Although there have been many previous attempts on reworking Korea on the suggestions forum (national ideas, provinces, events etc.), none of them have really been implemented, so I decided to compile those ideas into one thread here. Korean...forum.paradoxplaza.com
I think we agree on the general gist that instead of straight up nerfing a good king for no reason Korea should instead have a dynastic event chain/disaster similar to England/Granada/Moldavia/Austria-Hungary after Sejong dies.
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While I think the estate privilege bonus is too little, I think more countries should start bogged down in estate privileges that they have to revoke rather than estates essentially being an absolute and net positive as it is right now. EU4 timeline was partly defined by state centralisation efforts and the reactions to it. Right now too many privileges are just too good for the state and only repurcussions come at age of absolutism. For example the trade good monopolies are simply too good early on when there isn't enough trade modifiers and trade control in the game.
I really wish countries started with some more default privileges already enacted and indeed some privileges that are limitations that you have to get rid of depending on the country in question. I hope they do look over some of the bigger and more important states especially to fine tune the situation of estates in 1444.
I really wish countries started with some more default privileges already enacted and indeed some privileges that are limitations that you have to get rid of depending on the country in question. I hope they do look over some of the bigger and more important states especially to fine tune the situation of estates in 1444.
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This is what I did for my mod, which tries to make Asia more like Europe.
At the very least I want to see Korea gain 20% Naval Morale so it finally has a niche as an East Asian naval nation. Right now even some of the Japanese and Philippine minors have better naval NIs than Korea, not to mention the absurdity that is Japanese NIs having the same naval quality as Korean. Arty fire is a good modifier to represent the hwachas imo, although I think it should be 0.5 along with the Iberians due to how strong it is early game.
Code:
KOR_ideas = {
start = {
navy_tradition = 1
naval_morale = 0.2
}
bonus = {
artillery_fire = 1
}
trigger = {
tag = KOR
}
free = yes
hanguel_alphabet = {
technology_cost = -0.05
innovativeness_gain = 0.25
}
kor_fortspam = {
defensiveness = 0.2
}
hyanyak_system = {
development_cost = -0.1
}
geobukseon = {
ship_durability = 0.1
}
kor_economy_reform = {
global_trade_goods_size_modifier = 0.1
}
kyujanggak = {
idea_cost = -0.1
}
kor_military_prep = {
discipline = 0.05
}
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Can we also move the mountain to, you know, where it is actually located? The province of Jianzhou is so awkward. The modifier should really be split in half and put in Korea's Gyeongsong and Jianzhou's Maolian. This also matches up with the modern day situation where half of the mountain is in China and the other in North Korea.
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IIRC art fire also affects naval combats due to ships using the same cannons(?), which would actually make more sense in this case instead of art CA. Don't really like the discipline to be honest though, considering how bland it is at this point. (Ming, Oirat, and almost all of the Japanese daimyos have it, while all of the hordes get +5% discipline by simply having high horde unity) I'd rather have a less common idea that more suits Korea historically like the +1 admin skill I gave in its ambition.
I really like the innovativeness gain, but the reason why I didn't include it was because it'd be a dead idea for non-Rule Brittania owners. If innovativeness gets shifted over to the base game however I'd love to see this implemented. Considering how Rule Brittania is a relatively new DLC though, I'd say -10% tech cost would be a safer bet. (Remember when the Manchu Alphabet used to give twice the tech cost bonus that the Hangul Alphabet did? Haha very funny Paradox)
I also reckon the dev cost modifier should be moved earlier in the idea set, considering how most of the dev-ing you'll be doing is in the early game, to spawn the first three institutions and get rid of the awful events. Maybe just switch it with the fort defence idea? (Also fort spam could probably use a better name
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Maybe something similar to how Makkah and Madinah work for Muslims right now? Owning only one of them won't give you any benefits, but owning both will give you a triggered modifier, incentivising conquest. (Not like the Jurchens need any more incentives to eat up Korea more than they do now, but hey, hordstronk koraweak)
And hopefully they ditch the religious restriction and only require the culture to be Korean or Jurchen. Gameplay-wise Confucianism is awful and needs to be ditched ASAP, while it also doesn't make that much history-wise considering how Baekdu Mountain has been a part of Korean folklore since before Confucianism was even a thing.
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5% discipline is similar to the sole 5% discipline in British NIs and it was given because you really need discipline NI to survive in multiplayer (which was the original intention of the mod)IIRC art fire also affects naval combats due to ships using the same cannons(?), which would actually make more sense in this case instead of art CA. Don't really like the discipline to be honest though, considering how bland it is at this point. (Ming, Oirat, and almost all of the Japanese daimyos have it, while all of the hordes get +5% discipline by simply having high horde unity) I'd rather have a less common idea that more suits Korea historically like the +1 admin skill I gave in its ambition.
I really like the innovativeness gain, but the reason why I didn't include it was because it'd be a dead idea for non-Rule Brittania owners. If innovativeness gets shifted over to the base game however I'd love to see this implemented. Considering how Rule Brittania is a relatively new DLC though, I'd say -10% tech cost would be a safer bet. (Remember when the Manchu Alphabet used to give twice the tech cost bonus that the Hangul Alphabet did? Haha very funny Paradox)
I also reckon the dev cost modifier should be moved earlier in the idea set, considering how most of the dev-ing you'll be doing is in the early game, to spawn the first three institutions and get rid of the awful events. Maybe just switch it with the fort defence idea? (Also fort spam could probably use a better name
Innovativeness Gain is always replaced with 1/10th -idea cost modifier (so it would be -2.5% idea cost without Rule Britannica).
Dev Cost modifier is intentional because in my mod Korea has 340 dev and it wants to get to 400 for claims. They should really buff Korean dev up to at least around 300, perhaps 250-300 if Korea is given no severe penalties for declaring war (current inwards perfection estate priv is pointless).
kor_fortspam is only a code name. The loc actually calls it "Country of Fortresses."
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In the base game I usually stack discipline by ditching Confucianism for Vajrayana ASAP, and then flipping to a theocracy, which essentially gives you +5% morale, +10% discipline and +5% infantry CA, which somewhat makes up for Korea's subpar ideas. Problem being that in multiplayer, everyone else can do that. However considering how Paradox's balancing policy seems to be geared towards singeplayer, I'd rather have the discipline come from a seperate source, most likely from completing the Manchuria part of the Korean mission tree. Considering how Dai Viet will get a permanent -30% art cost and +10% siege ability just from having good relations with a European nation, surely getting a permanent +5% discipline from conquering the entirety of Manchuria wouldn't be too out of scope?
Huh, TIL. Does that mean with RB Korea would have -12.5% idea cost? And would a -10% tech cost &+25% innovativeness gain be too over the top?
I am 90% sure Paradox will never buff Korea's dev to historical accuracy, because Korea is the 'historical loser' in the region. This is why areas like Germany, Scandanavia and Manchuria have enormously inflated dev, while regions like Hungary, Ruthenia and Korea have hilariously low dev. Even if they do buff Korea's dev somewhat, I'd say 200~250 would be the max we could expect, along with another 100 added to both Japan and Manchuria because they're supposed to be the 'historical winners' of the region.
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I actually saw a pretty informative data sheet made by Pbhuh here.
The most notable examples are
Denmark - 0.6 Million - Ingame: 128 dev - 213 dev/million
England (wales and england) - 2.5 Million - Ingame: 246 Dev - 98.4 dev/million
Hungary - 3 Million - Ingame: 176 Dev - 58.6 dev/million
We can already see Hungary falls far behind on this scale. Here's a few comparisons in East and Southeast Asia on top of that.
Japan - 8 Million - Ingame: 372 dev - 46.5 dev/million
Korea - 8 Million - Ingame: 130 dev - 16.25 dev/million
Khmer - 1.2 Million - Ingame: 85 dev - 70.8 dev/million
Dai Viet - 8.3 Million - Ingame: 119 dev - 13.25 dev/million (Post-Champa conquest and the White Elephant War)
Malacca - 0.15 Million - Ingame: 72 dev - 480 dev/million...?
Already we can see that Korea falls behind every single nation on this list bar Dai Viet and even then by not much. The European nations, including Hungary, all soar far past Korea, with Denmark having more than 13 times the amount of dev per population.
Even if the exclude the European nations though, the Asian nations also leave Korea in the dust, with even Khmer, a crumbling empire on its death throes having more than 4 times the amount of dev per population. (Further note that Khmer will recieve 6 new provinces this patch, and hence a dev buff) And don't even get me started on how inflated Malacca's dev is. At least they're getting split in this patch.
Dai Viet is the sole nation behind Korea, but will recieve 2 new provinces upon start with the new patch, while Champa will recieve 3 more, meaning their aggregated dev will be much higher, considering how Dai Viet's provinces are much higher dev than Korea's (9.87 dev/province VS 6.5 dev/province)
Another note that Manchuria has more than double the amount of dev that Korea has at 308, while most likely having a smaller population that Korea did. Probably helpful, considering how tag shifting to Manchu is optimal for Korea, to escape the awful events, get better ideas, AND get a better misssion tree.
Even the Interlacustine minors start off with better development density than Korea. The provinces of Buganda and Nduga start off with higher dev than Hanseong, because... well, who knows, koreabad.
Fuck it, even New Zealand has better provinces than Korea, and Paradox didn't even bother to represent the Maori living there.
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So i pretty much went into this in a new thread i posted.
Development, the numbers should be doubled, the effects halved
Recently, I was looking at some population numbers vs development of countries in Europe. One thing that immediately caught my eye was the overevaluation of development in Scandinavia and general Artic/Tundra/Taiga areas. Why is this? Well...
The primary issue with it is simply every province needs to be at least 1/1/1. The issue then becomes that steppe, siberia, scandinavia and deserts are generally just 1/1/1. And reducing the number of provinces creates more problems because movement would be horrid and no new nations could be added.
So inherently these nations should just be 1/1/1 development, not really giving you much.
Now Korea, China and most eastern asian nations besides Japan fall into the issue of them needing to be weak so that the manchu tribes stand a chance at fighting them.
This comes from the issue of Development just being a measure of power and not a realistic part of history.
What I mean by that is, tribal and horde nations in history would be very militaristic and have low development and thus less money and luxury.
Empires such as Ming but also western european nations rely more on having cities, trading, money etc. and empires takes a lot of money to maintain, which means that a small nation or group of people like the mongols or manchu if they are effectively united, become very powerful even though they have low population. They generally have high numbers of armies, are not reliant on cities or infrastructure and china and other empires are the opposite, they are mostly civilian, not military and generally if you threaten a city you hurt them a lot, and people who raid you can steal a lot of your money.
So effectively in any future installment, it would be amazing to see the dynamic between large population and high empire maintenance, thus generally being less effectively militarily vs small nations such as the Swiss or Dithmarshen or Hordes or the Norse nations who can field an effective army without having high land maintenance.
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But this rant aside,
Korea should be boosted by probably 4x development, and I guess Ming should be doubled, with them having a negative modifier having less military capability, thus focussing more on Money and Building Tall, but having higher state maintenance, which for Korea could be really cool.
This could bring them more in line with Japan who gets boosted development compared to other east asian nations because pretty much Asian HRE.
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Permanent direct combat boosting modifiers are almost never given out by Paradox mission trees. Only Morocco gets 2.5% discipline in its tree. Besides, then you run into the problem of being able to get the modifier and then swapping tags for stacking ideas. Also -30% Art Cost and 10% Siege Ability is not that good, imo, especially when you consider that it looks like Dai Viet will yet again have less dev than Laos, Khmer (at least a lot less dev than what they should have).
Japan isn't even a 'historical winner' during the period. Basically all East Asian nations began to fall behind Europeans once the Industrial Era kicked off (which is the initial point of eu4). Japan didn't even stay united during eu4's time period. I would say that's basically as bad as Korea's fall into corruption.
Yes it would. -12.5 idea cost is fine, just weird. Paradox treats -10% tech as some sort of god idea even though I believe it is way too overrated, so it should not go with an additional modifier.
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But Korea isn't a formable nation (Morocco is), which means unless you start as them you won't be able to swap to Korea, meaning you'd have to start as them to get benefits. And I'm pretty sure Neondt said somewhere that the newly added Dai Viet provinces are high dev compared to the rest of SEA, so we'll have to see. (Although I don't think Dai Viet's dev will be anywhere near as where it should be, at least it's a distant possibility from the way he phrased it) The +10% siege ability is great though, and the -30% art cost, while less impactful than the siege ability, means that a large chunk of your army maintenance is reduced. At mil tech 16, assuming you have 0 inflation, a single unit of artillery will cost 0.79 ducats per month. Assuming that you have full combat width (30) of artillery, this means that you will save 7 ducats per month, which isn't insignificant, especially considering how bad the Siam node is. This gets even better lategame (although cash probably won't matter by then), where you will save 11 ducats per month for a full combat width (40) stack of artillery.
But players like playing in Japan. That's what matters. The HRE fell apart in 1806 historically (well it was gradual, but formally it was in 1806), but players prefer playing in the HRE, so its mechanics are fleshed out so that it's easy to keep the Empire together and revoke in the 1600s. Same thing goes for Japan. Japan never united in the game's timeline, but there's almost as many Japan-boos as there are Prussiaboos, meaning Paradox will gear Japan towards a easy and well flavoured gameplay. And in order for Japan players to have a easy time, Korea cannot be strong. Ergo Korea is purposefully kept weak. Same thing applies to the Jurchen tribes in that everyone wants to play Jianzhou->Manchu, and in order for them to do that Korea needs to be easy fodder.
Japan's idea set, high dev, and extensive mission tree is quite literally the ideal 'I want to have an easy game' nation. Starting off as Ashikaga or one of the larger daimyos ensures that you unite the archipelago before 1500, after which you can steamroll the rest of East Asia because you have one third the dev of Ming, and the East Asian equivalent of Prussian ideas with colonial and naval ideas sprinkled in. And on top of that there's the fact that Shinto is superior to every other religion in the area bar Tengri.
-10% tech cost would be 60 mana saved per tech, meaning 180 mana per level. Assuming you rush admin tech 4 and have enough monarch points to get three ideas before tech 5, which would be around 5000 mana saved until the end of the game (355 years from tech 5). Which is around the difference a 0/0/0/ and a 6/6/6 would make in 20 years. Honestly don't think it'd tip Korea's idea set into 'too overpowered' territory. It might however rescue it from 'lol the generic idea set is better than this' area.
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It doesn't make sense for Korea in 1444 though. This was the peak of monarchical power in the Joseon dynasty, it basically only gets less centralized and overrun with noble privileges over time. The privilege causing stability hits for declaring war makes no sense from a historical perspective either, given that Sejong had just recently conquered lands in Northeastern Korea, as well as invading Tsushima (Sō) earlier in his reign, so this was the period of time when Korea was expansionistic.
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