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Sidolowka

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Good ideas, but +15% goods and +25% fort D for all forts is very very OP, it wont happen. +10/+10 is much more realistic.
Fair point about the goods produced modifier, but I don't see why not for the 25% fort defence. I can already think of Georgia, Switzerland, Theodoro, Jerusalem and Afghanistan off the top of my head for countries with 25% fort defence, and Switzerland even has a 20% fort maintenance modifier bundled in the same idea. I believe some HRE minors also have it too.

*actually bohemia got same stab hit thing too if he decides to take it*
A. 'if he decides to take it'
B. It's removable at will with no disadvantages, compared to this 'privilege' that knocks off 20% clergy loyalty and can't even be revoked when clergy loyalty is lower than their influence.
C. At least the Hussite modifier gives 30% improve relations, the 4% dev cost modifier this gives is useless.

with gingseng, move it foward in order but nerf it to 10%... or make it a

yeah that hanguk and gyujangak feels real nice.

15% naval morale as a tradition..? nah, korea gets a trade power tradition at base and it should keep that, maybe buff it but its decent.

As for the tag change to Daehan (or the empire of korea) as a finisher to the expansion mission tree (instead of giving korea claims on most of china, just up to beijing would suffice honestly), I want it to have colonial ideas just to make it unique amoung asian nations, as goguryo has historically settled the northeast. its not like, even with these buffs, korea would natually ever FORM Daehan as an AI that often, and even then they wouldn't go colonial.
The domestic trade power modifier is actually kind of weak, since the effect is limited to the provincial trade power, only in Nippon. So the idea group is practically worthless once you conquer the Nippon node. And early on you won't even notice it due to Korea's provinces being absolute garbage. I'd rather give Korea two naval ideas, since I don't see them receiving a development buff (which increases naval force limit) anytime soon.
 
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Calculating how much mana this 'privilege' saves.

Sidolowka

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I had an experiment in the early game where I tried to lower Hanseong's dev cost as low as possible.

After upgrading Hanseong to a level 2 centre of trade, I used the burghers, the dev cost state edict, the tributary port event and a few other bits, managing to bring down the dev cost to 28 mana per dev.

And then I reinstated 'Inwards Perfection', which lowered the dev cost to a grand total of...

28 mana per dev.

Yes, you heard me right, with all other modifiers maxed out, this 'privilege' does not actually provide a meaningful benefit.

I proceeded to sell all my crownland and give the clergy every other possible privilege, boosting their land share up to 46% and leaving crownland at 0%. (Logically speaking this is near the maximum amount land the clergy alone can hold, due to there being two other estates that aren't willing to kindly donate their land to the clergy.) Lo and behold, the new dev cost was...

27 mana per dev.

That's right, by crippling your country by selling all your crownland, throwing away your capability to declare war while also risking a clergy coup, you get to save a grand total of ONE mana per dev! It took me 26 dev's to spawn the Renaissance in Hanseong, which means I saved a whopping 26 mana! That's enough to, well, buy half a general? I guess it evens out since you won't need generals, considering how you can't declare wars anymore.
 
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TheBraveGallade

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I had an experiment in the early game where I tried to lower Hanseong's dev cost as low as possible.

After upgrading Hanseong to a level 2 centre of trade, I used the burghers, the dev cost state edict, the tributary port event and a few other bits, managing to bring down the dev cost to 28 mana per dev.

And then I reinstated 'Inwards Perfection', which lowered the dev cost to a grand total of...

28 mana per dev.

Yes, you heard me right, with all other modifiers maxed out, this 'privilege' does not actually provide any meaningful benefit.

I proceeded to sell all my crownland and give the clergy every other possible privilege, boosting their land share up to 46% and leaving crownland at 0%. (Logically speaking this is near the maximum amount land the clergy alone can hold, due to there being two other estates that aren't willing to kindly donate their land to the clergy.) Lo and behold, the new dev cost was...

27 mana per dev.

That's right, by crippling your country by selling all your crownland, throwing away your capability to declare war while also risking a clergy coup, you get to save a grand total of ONE mana per dev! It took me 26 dev's to spawn the Renaissance in Hanseong, which means I saved a whopping 26 mana! That's enough to, well, buy half a general? I guess it evens out since you won't need generals, considering how you can't declare war anymore.

lol. like even when using it for that AND deving the penninsula to 6, it saves less then.... what an advisor potentially gives (-10% stab cost modifier, yearly inflation reduction). like even without the negatives it would be a garbage national idea, hell even when you said the 'local trade' tradition was shit at least it somewhat helps your early game economy from being shittier then it already is.

I'd say buff it up to 15%, but it gives a -15% unjuestified demands modifier.

anyway one of the most annoying thing about korea is that despite being fairly large it starts out with negative income if you don't mothball 2 of the forts.

It should be at least enough income to have the forts and army and be close to breaking even lol... which I think my suggested province layout achieves.
 
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Sidolowka

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lol. like even when using it for that AND deving the penninsula to 6, it saves less then.... what an advisor potentially gives (-10% stab cost modifier, yearly inflation reduction). like even without the negatives it would be a garbage national idea, hell even when you said the 'local trade' tradition was shit at least it somewhat helps your early game economy from being shittier then it already is.

I'd say buff it up to 15%, but it gives a -15% unjuestified demands modifier.

anyway one of the most annoying thing about korea is that despite being fairly large it starts out with negative income if you don't mothball 2 of the forts.

It should be at least enough income to have the forts and army and be close to breaking even lol... which I think my suggested province layout achieves.
Delete the fort in Gyeongju on day one, it is absolutely useless. You only really need the fort in Ganggye, and maybe the one in Hanseong if you get stuck on 42% siege progress for 2 years while the AI melts your Ganggye fort on the first 7% tick.

Even then though your point still stands, Korea's starting income is waaaaay too low, and they don't even start out anywhere near their full force limit.
 

TheBraveGallade

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Delete the fort in Gyeongju on day one, it is absolutely useless. You only really need the fort in Ganggye, and maybe the one in Hanseong if you get stuck on 42% siege progress for 2 years while the AI melts your Ganggye fort on the first 7% tick.

Even then though your point still stands, Korea's starting income is waaaaay too low, and they don't even start out anywhere near their full force limit.
well, for one, fucking SEOUL, one of the biggest cites in general at the time, should not have less dev then the manchu border provinces...

also Korea's population is only slightly behind britan, always has been, and that is the same with most other demographics as well.

the gyongju fort is historical if nothing else, and would help in a japanese invasion. gyongju is also a historical huge city that only started to decline around mid-josun replaced by busan which, with the current map, is in the same province anyway.
 
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BlazeKnight_

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@Sidolowka I have actually been spreading false info gathered too quickly... the "Inwards Pefection" is a privileged available to all Eastern religions, not just Confucians (I think).
Wait... that makes this isolated arbitrary nerf for Korea even stranger... hmmmmmm

At the very least, Korea deserves legitimately "acceptable" national ideas to give you a reason for playing as them. Giving them a +1 Artillery Fire in place of the 10% ICA (Hwachas were used on land and sea) and a 20% Naval Morale for one of their traditions already makes their idea set legitimately appealing and unique when put next to Japan's, who have just straight up upgrades at this point.

Right now Korea's idea set is the generic mish-mash of 10% modifiers that were created during a time when National Ideas were a valuable luxury (those 10%s are actually "good" compared to the generic idea set). The only idea I wouldn't consider bad is the Ship Durability, except, as expected, Paradox didn't make it better than Japan's, only equal (not that it matters anyway, you can't be a good naval nation without Naval Morale in your ideas).
 
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TheBraveGallade

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@Sidolowka I have actually been spreading false info gathered too quickly... the "Inwards Pefection" is a privileged available to all Eastern religions, not just Confucians (I think).
Wait... that makes this isolated arbitrary nerf for Korea even stranger... hmmmmmm

At the very least, Korea deserves legitimately "acceptable" national ideas to give you a reason for playing as them. Giving them a +1 Artillery Fire in place of the 10% ICA (Hwachas were used on land and sea) and a 20% Naval Morale for one of their traditions already makes their idea set legitimately appealing and unique when put next to Japan's, who have just straight up upgrades at this point.

Right now Korea's idea set is the generic mish-mash of 10% modifiers that were created during a time when National Ideas were a valuable luxury (those 10%s are actually "good" compared to the generic idea set). The only idea I wouldn't consider bad is the Ship Durability, except, as expected, Paradox didn't make it better than Japan's, only equal (not that it matters anyway, you can't be a good naval nation without Naval Morale in your ideas).

Why does japan get ship durability again? in EU4's timeframe, japanese gally equivilant ships were LITERALLY made of paper(on the sides)! compared to korean ships with a roof covered in sheet metal by 1500.

what should be is that japan gets faster ships while korea gets durability+fire modifiers. edit: maybe disiembarkment time mods too.

Also, I suggest Hangul be moved out of national ideas entirely and moved into an event that fires in 1446. instant 5% loyalty reduction but -10% tech cost and 10% institution spread for the rest of the game or soemthing.

edit: just looked at your mod, seems promising, going to fire it up.
 
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Why does japan get ship durability again? in EU4's timeframe, japanese gally equivilant ships were LITERALLY made of paper(on the sides)! compared to korean ships with a roof covered in sheet metal by 1500.

what should be is that japan gets faster ships while korea gets durability+fire modifiers. edit: maybe disiembarkment time mods too.
Japan's national ideas are more based on Imperial Japan of the Meiji and Showa emperors rather than anything historical from the EU4 timeframe. They have ideas such as Unification under the Emperor referring to the Meiji Restoration, Modernization referring to the modernization of Japan during the Meiji period, and Maritime Legacy referring the Imperial Japanese Navy that defeated the Russians in Tsushima and fought the Americans in the Pacific. Having these ideas is extremely weird during the EU4 time frame however. For example, the only Maritime Legacy Japan had from 1444-1821 was getting defeated by Korean admiral Yi Sun-sin during the Imjin War, losing a battle against 12 ships when they had around 330.
 
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TheBraveGallade

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Japan's national ideas are more based on Imperial Japan of the Meiji and Showa emperors rather than anything historical from the EU4 timeframe. They have ideas such as Unification under the Emperor referring to the Meiji Restoration, Modernization referring to the modernization of Japan during the Meiji period, and Maritime Legacy referring the Imperial Japanese Navy that defeated the Russians in Tsushima and fought the Americans in the Pacific. Having these ideas is extremely weird during the EU4 time frame however. For example, the only Maritime Legacy Japan had from 1444-1821 was getting defeated by Korean admiral Yi Sun-sin during the Imjin War, losing a battle against 12 ships when they had around 330.

well they did defeat the other admiral when Yi was sent into exile because the king was jelous of him, and the japanese admirals were actually pretty compotent, and they had good naval tradition, at least the former daimyos that were navally focused were. its just that yi was so much better.

As I said, japanese boat were faster and they had superior boarding tactics and are very good at raiding. japan should have something based on this. ship speed +15%, privateer efficeincy +15% maybe.
 
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TheBraveGallade

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I actually really like Blazeknight's mod for its provences (should be nerfed compared to it in the actual game since joeson would not have the same penulties, and niether would ming) which incidentally is similar to mine, just with a few more provences and WAY more dev. a bit too much dev for the base game. Also korean STRAIT trade node was a briliant idea, encompassing southern korea and a quarter of southern japan to simultainioulsy give korea a node while there still being competiton with japanese states. the trade nodes are a bit to radical though making korea/malacca/beijing/hangzhou into end nodes...
the centers of trade are nice though and is historically accurate, though i'd also add one center of trade to tsushima.

I like how the tree is more historically correct for korean expansion, though I still stand by the fact that Korea should only require maybe 1(shandong) provence from ming to form the empire.
Also korean mission to develop hanseoung was briliant since it guarentees that AI korea spawns rennaisance, which makes the reigion more historically accurate as the tech didn't really start being different between europe and asia when colonialization starts, and institution spreading out FROM asia at least for the first one, makes sense. in addition korea was in a fucking golden age, with ming just coming out of one IRL

also I like the fact that he made subcultures within the penninsula, though kind of useless... southwest and southeast korea have different reigional cultures after all thats seperate from the middle, which is seperate from the north.

I wish the four immediatle neighboring provences were korean in culture, as I think shandong used to be before manchu....
 
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Im writing just to bump this thread in hope of a Developer reply.

Played Korea and did all of its achievements and the country really is a joke compared to all of its neighbours.

If what you mentioned about Korea being in the golden age, having one of the larger populations of the time etc. Is true, It is really laughable because iirc even the manchu tribes have better economy than Korea lmao

I think a huge Korea buff with a small manchu buff would shake the region even better, since half the games i still don't see ming collapse
 
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Im writing just to bump this thread in hope of a Developer reply.

Played Korea and did all of its achievements and the country really is a joke compared to all of its neighbours.

If what you mentioned about Korea being in the golden age, having one of the larger populations of the time etc. Is true, It is really laughable because iirc even the manchu tribes have better economy than Korea lmao

I think a huge Korea buff with a small manchu buff would shake the region even better, since half the games i still don't see ming collapse

Ming collapses quite often in my games. Just Manchu rarely forms and quing basically never.
 

Sidolowka

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Im writing just to bump this thread in hope of a Developer reply.

Played Korea and did all of its achievements and the country really is a joke compared to all of its neighbours.

If what you mentioned about Korea being in the golden age, having one of the larger populations of the time etc. Is true, It is really laughable because iirc even the manchu tribes have better economy than Korea lmao

I think a huge Korea buff with a small manchu buff would shake the region even better, since half the games i still don't see ming collapse
I think at this point most of us know better than to expect a Korea buff from Paradox. I only wrote this post to bring to attention what kind of state Korea is currently in, and maybe convince the developers to stop bloody nerfing an already half-dead country. Because at this rate they're gonta nerf Korea's development next, and then nerf Sejong into mere mediocrity, because reasons.

We get it Paradox, more people like to play the Manchu tribes or the Japanese daimyos, and Korea needs to be easy food for both of these nations to expand. But wouldn't it be more enticing for them to expand their powerbase into some actually decent land instead of what's basically the equivalent of a mountainous Siberia? (not to mention the wrong culture) Food for thought.

Japan's national ideas are more based on Imperial Japan of the Meiji and Showa emperors rather than anything historical from the EU4 timeframe. They have ideas such as Unification under the Emperor referring to the Meiji Restoration, Modernization referring to the modernization of Japan during the Meiji period, and Maritime Legacy referring the Imperial Japanese Navy that defeated the Russians in Tsushima and fought the Americans in the Pacific. Having these ideas is extremely weird during the EU4 time frame however. For example, the only Maritime Legacy Japan had from 1444-1821 was getting defeated by Korean admiral Yi Sun-sin during the Imjin War, losing a battle against 12 ships when they had around 330.

A lot of national ideas (along with Japan) are actually unsuited for EU4's timeline, E.G. Germany and Italy. I'm assuming Paradox used the more modern versions of these countries due to them not actually existing during said timeline. They're basically supposed to be reward formations exclusive to the player, and they give accordingly great national ideas.

However this applies slightly differently in Japan's case. When's the last time you've seen the AI form Germany? Or hell, even Italy for that matter? The AI is never good enough to manage the AE and alliances enough to form these nations, however in the case of Japan, it's almost guaranteed to form every game, due to the fact that they're completely shielded from outside wars, and only have to care about their internal battle royale.

Unlike the HRE, which only brings in the Emperor and the Emperor's allies upon a war declaration from an outsider, when one of the Japanese daimyos get declared on, the entirety of the archipelago drops what they're doing and defends them, along with the Shogun's allies if they have any. This means that unless a country powerful enough to overcome 30 different OPM's at once (like Ming) declares war on them, they're completely safe to do whatever they want on the islands. Whoever wins the battle royale (which ends waaay too early in-game, in real life the daimyo network lasted until the 19th century, when they overthrew the Tokugawa shogunate) is free to form Japan, by which they recieve their powerful ideas.

That aside though, the Japanese idea set is really more of a caricature of modern Japan than it is an accurate representation of what Japan would've been if they united then. Their land military ideas are justified, but +15 settler increase? 10% ship durability? -15% aggressive expansion impact?? What are these ideas even based on? WWII Era Japan 'colonising' the Pacific islands? As I mentioned before, these ideas are reward formations exclusive to the player. But in Japan's case the AI's free to use it too, and for the player it's not even that hard. Uniting Japan is a trivial task, for which the reward is immense.
 
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I think at this point most of us know better than to expect a Korea nerf from Paradox. I only wrote this post to bring to attention what kind of state Korea is currently in, and maybe convince the developers to stop bloody nerfing an already half-dead country. Because at this rate they're gonta nerf Korea's development next, and then nerf Sejong into mere mediocrity, because reasons.

We get it Paradox, more people like to play the Manchu tribes or the Japanese daimyos, and Korea needs to be easy food for both of these nations to expand. But wouldn't it be more enticing for them to expand their powerbase into some actually decent land instead of what's basically the equivalent of a mountainous Siberia? (not to mention the wrong culture) Food for thought.



A lot of national ideas (along with Japan) are actually unsuited for EU4's timeline, E.G. Germany and Italy. I'm assuming Paradox used the more modern versions of these countries due to them not actually existing during said timeline. They're basically supposed to be reward formations exclusive to the player, and they give accordingly great national ideas.

However this applies slightly differently in Japan's case. When's the last time you've seen the AI form Germany? Or hell, even Italy for that matter? The AI is never good enough to manage the AE and alliances enough to form these nations, however in the case of Japan, it's almost guaranteed to form every game, due to the fact that they're completely shielded from outside wars, and only have to care about their internal battle royale.

Unlike the HRE, which only brings in the Emperor and the Emperor's allies upon a war declaration from an outsider, when one of the Japanese daimyos get declared on, the entirety of the archipelago drops what they're doing and defends them, along with the Shogun's allies if they have any. This means that unless a country powerful enough to overcome 30 different OPM's at once (like Ming) declares war on them, they're completely safe to do whatever they want on the islands. Whoever wins the battle royale (which ends waaay too early in-game, in real life the daimyo network lasted until the 19th century, when they overthrew the Tokugawa shogunate) is free to form Japan, by which they recieve their powerful ideas.

That aside though, the Japanese idea set is really more of a caricature of modern Japan than it is an accurate representation of what Japan would've been if they united then. Their land military ideas are justified, but +15 settler increase? 10% ship durability? -15% aggressive expansion impact?? What are these ideas even based on? WWII Era Japan 'colonising' the Pacific islands? As I mentioned before, these ideas are reward formations exclusive to the player. But in Japan's case the AI's free to use it too, and for the player it's not even that hard. Uniting Japan is a trivial task, for which the reward is immense.

If anything korea deserves the colonial ideas more after a tag switch to empire(rename the starting tag to Joesun), korea, or at least all direct inheritors of goguryo, have ALWAYS attempted to settle in the northeast direction. hell, after realizing that yukjin was pretty much unsustainable by itself even JOSUN attempted to colonise the plains to the north/northeast.

if it was unsustainable to josun, how did the manchus live? simple, they were half horde, half agricultural. one thing that isn't well represented outside of institutions is that manchu was half hunter gatherer, half agricultural, unlike, say, fully hunter gatherer/nomad mongolians.
Id say give mongolians and manchurians +100% livestock production in steppes to give them more income to get calvary maintenence costs.
 
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TheBraveGallade

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Im writing just to bump this thread in hope of a Developer reply.

Played Korea and did all of its achievements and the country really is a joke compared to all of its neighbours.

If what you mentioned about Korea being in the golden age, having one of the larger populations of the time etc. Is true, It is really laughable because iirc even the manchu tribes have better economy than Korea lmao

I think a huge Korea buff with a small manchu buff would shake the region even better, since half the games i still don't see ming collapse

Oh ming does collapse a lot, I know that much, but the machurians have no chance, usually they get eaten by mogolia or even just get eaten by the non jurchen korchin more often. Shun just ends up eating manchuria when I'm not checking thier power myself as a expansionist korea.(shun forming is my stop, drop and war trigger as you can easily take shun beijing as korea while they are more occupied by ming)
 

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I thought Korea is strong enough and couldn't believe what you write here, so I checked my 6 post 1.30 games.

it is not so bad... 3 times Korea survived till 18th century. As a 3-6 province vassal of Manchu / Qing, but DID survive

There is still some space to nerf
 
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I thought Korea is strong enough and couldn't believe what you write here, so I checked my 6 post 1.30 games.

it is not so bad... 3 times Korea survived till 18th century. As a 3-6 province vassal of Manchu / Qing, but DID survive

There is still some space to nerf

its still 'inaccurate' considering 1444 was the peak of the korean golden age, and only a series of bad luck and incompotent leaders around the 15-16th century and factionalism in the 16th century if what led to its ruin.

also it should be a 20 provence vassel of manchu/qing if we want to be historically accurate.
 
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I thought Korea is strong enough and couldn't believe what you write here, so I checked my 6 post 1.30 games.

it is not so bad... 3 times Korea survived till 18th century. As a 3-6 province vassal of Manchu / Qing, but DID survive

There is still some space to nerf
How does unperforming compared to history equal to "being strong"? Historically, Korea survived with the essentially same borders from 1444 to 1821, and switching from being a tributary of Ming to a tributary of Qing. If anything, Korea ending up as a 3 province vassal is anecdotal evidence that Korea needs to be buffed.
 
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