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lilunxm12

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It isn't very annoying, which begs the question, why does Korea starts with it in the first place? The only real reason I can see for that being the case is to push the Korean AI into not expanding early on, or at least temporarily not. But what about the newer player experience? Say you got a new player that don't know the mechanics very well, is afraid of having negative modifiers and plays Korea? That, in my opinion, is the worst case scenario.
That's probably the underlying reason.
Ming mission tree is a joke on purpose, sadly. on the 1.29 DD the devs said that there would be no Ming mission tree cause they already start out pretty powerful and it was their intention for the Ming to don't survive all the time, so adding more missions would be counter productive.
That's fine as long as they make flavor missions/formable countries for the supposed successor states, but they didn't. Another approach could be like Russian tree, start with the requirement of surviving the disaster/ pass certain time (this was done in Third Rome,before Manchu), they didn't do it either.
 
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Battlex

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For people who haven't noticed yet, the 1.30 update gave Korea an estate privilege that makes them take a stab hit every time they declare war. The justification for doing so was that 'Korea did not expand much historically due to its Confucian values.' (Ming, the only other Confucian country in the game, did not receive such a nerf)

Korea is now the only country in the game that can take stability hits upon declaring normal, non-no-CB wars. Sure, you can revoke the privilege on 1444, but what's the point in having added the 'privilege' then?

'Oh you can either not declare wars (in a game of wars and conquest), or you get -20% clergy loyalty out the gate cause why not.'

The last update buffed Manchuria immensely, while also making Korea start off with a 5 year truce with it's only non-Ming neighbour Jianzhou (with no historical basis). This means that Korea can no longer utilise military tech 4 to challenge the far more militarily powerful Manchus (who can also ally each other, compared to the religiously isolated Korea).

Korea's only other starting expansion directions are Ming and Japan, the former which requires another stability hit to cancel tributary status with, while the latter is far more powerful due to its vassal swarm and better ideas/religion. On top of that Korea received a whole tonne of negative events ranging from peasant revolts to estate disasters, and of course who can forget, the So clan raiding their entire coastline every few years.

And this isn't even adressing how much of a joke Korea's development is. Korea starts off with 130 development in 1444. Historically Korea was in its golden age during this era, with a population of around 8,000,000. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by comparison had a population of around 7,500,000, yet Lithuania alone starts with more than twice the dev Korea has, and Lithuania is one of the worst represented regions in Europe. To make an even more extreme example, Korea's development is 2 higher than Denmark's 128, when in reality the entire Kalmar union had a smaller population than just the city of Hanseong alone.

This figure turns out even worse when compared to its neighbours. Korea is the only region in East Asia with such low dev, rubbish land bar Siberia. Korea's capital of Hanseong, a major city of the era with almost half of the Korean population in it starts with 10 development, compared to the Siberian tribe of Nivkh having 11 dev in its capital Deren. Korea's immediate northern neighbour of Jianzhou, a barely sedentary horde, starts off with two 15 dev provinces. The rest of Korea is pitifully low dev land, with Gyeongseong, Yukjin and Gangneung being the only 3 dev provinces in East Asia along with the island of Hokkaido.

An argument could be made about everywhere outside of Europe having relatively low dev, but a look at Japan right next door says otherwise. The population of the Ashikaga Shogunate and Korea during 1444 are estimated to be similar, with some scholars even stating that Korea had more subjects due to its peaceful reign, yet the Japanese archipelago starts with almost 400 dev, more than thrice the size of Korea. Combine this with their far superior ideas, and its easy to see why Korea gets annihilated by Japan every single game where they haven't been erased by the Manchus beforehand.

Speaking of ideas, it took Paradox years to fix Korea's naval idea. The Korean navy's sole legacy being their efficiency against the Japanese navy during the Imjin wars, you'd expect Korea to at least have better naval ideas than Japan, however for the entirety of EU4's lifetime up until just two days ago, the Korean idea set provided 5% ship durability compared to the Japanese 10%. Imagine the outrage if the Ottomans had twice the Cavalry combat ability Poland has. While the 1.30 patch has brought this number up to 10%, this still means that the Japanese has superior naval strength due to their far higher development and province density allowing for a much larger navy.

Historically the Japanese did have a much larger navy, yet lost to the Koreans with a navy a mere fraction of their size due to the quality of the Korean ships and their naval doctrine. The Korean community has asked multiple times for some sort of representation of such (most often through the way of naval morale or galley combat ability), but this seems to have fallen on dead ears.

Obviously Korea does not look to be a regional powerhouse, yet Paradox keeps hitting Korea with nerf after nerf. The 1.29 patch being especially critical to Korea, due to it completely blocking its one path of expansion. Calls for buffing Korea's development, giving Korea actually decent ideas or even an explanation on why Korea's starting heir is a 2/1/1 have gone ignored, and now with the 1.30 patch Korea has the honour of being the only country in EU4 history to take stability hits simply by declaring war.

As expected, Korea post-1.30 disappears off the map even faster than during the 1.29 patch. Paradox, please, at the very least, revoke the last patch for Korea. It's a miracle to see AI Korea surviving past even 1550, they do not deserve a further nerf.

I've seen the myriad of please buff Portugal posts have an effect (Congrats on Ribatejo), hopefully the next wave will be buff Korea.
No Korea shouldn't expand, Ming should force peace between tribs more, manchu should form more, and ming should implode.
Japan has high dev because then the region is more fun to play in, as well as meaning a lv3 Fort in 1444 isn't impossible to over come
 
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That's probably the underlying reason.

That's fine as long as they make flavor missions/formable countries for the supposed successor states, but they didn't. Another approach could be like Russian tree, start with the requirement of surviving the disaster/ pass certain time (this was done in Third Rome,before Manchu), they didn't do it either.
Russian mission tree is in the rule brittania update, in third Rome we still had the old mission system
 

TheBraveGallade

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its annoying.

The main problem is that revoking it becomes near impossible if you don't do it within the first 50 years, casue factional strife fires, lowering resting loyalty by a wopping 10%. the new estate mechanics are enough of a debuff to korea in that YOU CAN'T EASILY EVEN SIEZE CROWNLAND casue as korea, getting all 3 estates to 50% in and of itself is very, very costley.

My solution is buff that privlage to 15%, and give Korea more dev, as well as rework trade so that korea can get acess to tresure fleets from the entierty ofthe pacific coast colonies by colonizing and setting trade capitol to philipenes, thier logical first colonial area. buff manchu and oirat dev a bit as well as they just fail vs ming most of the time anyway to resist said korea.
 
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Sidolowka

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No Korea shouldn't expand, Ming should force peace between tribs more, manchu should form more, and ming should implode.
Japan has high dev because then the region is more fun to play in, as well as meaning a lv3 Fort in 1444 isn't impossible to over come
Your logic makes as much sense as 'Norway didn't declare any offensive wars during the time frame, so they should take a stab hit every time they declare war. Oh but since they're supposed to be a colonising country we'll give them -4% colony maintenance instead. Also since they were a subject of Denmark throughout EU4's time frame, we'll give them 20 dev since people like playing Denmark more.' (No offence meant to any Norwegians)

There is a fine line between implementing historical accuracy into the game, and just straight up railroading. The last patch that introduced the 5 year truce already crossed the line by being ahistorical (there was no truce during the period, the concept was brought out of thin air simply for balance), but this is just too much.

You can't force peace on your own subjects. And after the 1.29 patch, Ming is too busy exploding most of the time to even bother with the tribes. The war with Oirat usually takes years due to the 'siege Beijing to occupy all of Northern China' event, since the Oirat AI doesn't realise that this is a key chance to peace out Ming, and drags the war out for the 100% war score.

Manchu not forming Qing is no longer a problem with Korea. It used to be two patches ago, but nowadays the Manchu tribes usually have no trouble taking the entire Korean peninsula (Korea being one of the two Confucian countries in the world makes it very hard to find decent allies in the area), the problem being that they are way too passive in reuniting China after Ming explodes. They tributarise all the Chinese minors, which means they either never even get to Beijing, opting to just stay in Manchuria, or tributarise whoever's holding Nanjing and Canton, meaning they'll eventually follow Ming's paths and explode due to perpetually having 0 mandate.

I never said Japan shouldn't have high dev, in fact their dev is pretty historical in accordance to Europe, and I understand that the region is similar to the HRE in that multiple divided states tend to have a higher aggregated dev than a single united one. Problem being that 'the region being more fun to play in' is not justification for other regions to be nerfed. A lot of people have fun in playing in Italy, but that doesn't mean Paradox should nerf the Maghreb to obsoleteness so Italy players can steamroll them in 1444.
 
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I understood the reason they didn't buff korea in previous patches as korea, using its power as being more powerful then any single tribe (and there used to be only 3!) plus god king sejong at 6 6 5 meant that they steamrolled manchu as an AI most of the time, only being taken out by a powerful oirat or japan later in the game. but the missions and disasters introduced in manchu and now 1.3, as well as the buffs to its enemies (the tribes are only slightly weaker, but now there is like 6 of them in the region as well as the japanese pirate daimio constantly privateering)

if korea becomes a bit powerful, buff development in the manchu reigion alongside it- it would make manchu an eventual bigger threat to china, oirat and eventually russia (buff oirat too- they always die and its not even usually becasue of ming)

or give us the actual historically good stats of she 1444 start heir- just make sure he's sickly, he was an amazing king otherwise, I'd say a 5/4/4
 
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I understood the reason they didn't buff korea in previous patches as korea, using its power as being more powerful then any single tribe (and there used to be only 3!) plus god king sejong at 6 6 5 meant that they steamrolled manchu as an AI most of the time, only being taken out by a powerful oirat or japan later in the game. but the missions and disasters introduced in manchu and now 1.3, as well as the buffs to its enemies (the tribes are only slightly weaker, but now there is like 6 of them in the region as well as the japanese pirate daimio constantly privateering)

if korea becomes a bit powerful, buff development in the manchu reigion alongside it- it would make manchu an eventual bigger threat to china, oirat and eventually russia (buff oirat too- they always die and its not even usually becasue of ming)

or give us the actual historically good stats of she 1444 start heir- just make sure he's sickly, he was an amazing king otherwise, I'd say a 5/4/4

You make a fair point about Munjong (Hyang Yi, the Korean heir in 1444). He was a well educated man that notably invented the conventional Hwacha, improved the Hangul script his father created, and is even credited for being the inspiration for the water clock. His only fault was that he died 2 years into his reign, but in his defence he was crown prince for almost 30 decades after being denoted as official heir when he was 7, which means he died at 39, not uncommonly early for the time period.

Yet he's represented in game as a 2/1/1. I'm sure I've read somewhere on the forums that Paradox made a conscious decision to nerf him because 'Korea having two good kings in a row would make them overpowered', but now that Korea's been sufficiently nerfed into the ground maybe it's time to give them some historical accuracy instead of constant nerfs.

So is a pain in the arse for everyone in East Asia that isn't in Japan. They'll even raid the East Siberian coastline, which is pretty hilarious.

The introduction of 3 new tribes also bring about a seperate issue, namely coalitions. Taking 100% warscore from Jianzhou in your first war will create a coalition with the rest of Manchuria/Siberia, and sometimes even Oirat; this can be somewhat circumvented by immediately declaring war on Haixi after peacing out Jianzhou (Haixi is the only other tributary of Ming, which means the other coalition members will have to deal with both you and Ming in the coalition), but that requires a bit of game knowledge that not everyone posesses.

Your point on Oirat actually does make sense, sometimes they do fairly well against Ming, and other times they'll just white peace out after a decade of war. The main problem with AI hordes in general (including Manchu) isn't their surrounding neighbours, but the fact that they are way too passive, meaning their horde unity is constantly dropping and they're not razing enough to sustain their economy.
 
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Also the fact that munjong had effectivly taken over most of the king's duties as a regent since 1442 up to sejong's death, exept for hangul. actually its speculated that he made him regent so he could focus on hangul .basically almost everything good that happened in the last decade of sejong's long 31 year reign is mostly his doing, and I feel REALLY bad, as a korean, disinheriting him in this game. its when munjong DIED when joson became seriously destabilized, which lines up with the year factional strife begins.

aso why did they remove hall of worthies decision again? 50 gold for a small permanent buff to prestige... would be very useful as korea starts with low prestige these days
 
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And this isn't even adressing how much of a joke Korea's development is. Korea starts off with 130 development in 1444. Historically Korea was in its golden age during this era, with a population of around 8,000,000. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by comparison had a population of around 7,500,000, yet Lithuania alone starts with more than twice the dev Korea has, and Lithuania is one of the worst represented regions in Europe. To make an even more extreme example, Korea's development is 2 higher than Denmark's 128, when in reality the entire Kalmar union had a smaller population than just the city of Hanseong alone.

Where did you get these informations about the history of Korea? I'd like to gain expand my knowledge in that area aswell.
 

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Where did you get these informations about the history of Korea? I'd like to gain expand my knowledge in that area aswell.

Most of the texts are in Korean, but I used 이헌창's 한국경제통사 and 조선왕조시대 인구추정에 관한 일시론 by 권태환 and 신용하 for reference.
 
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ergo, everything east of india should have double the development it currently has, maybe a 200% development malus to compensate? might make that balanced... if it wasn't for the fact that whoever holds china still has more then enough of everything to win the game at the start- just by holding on to all that they have.
 

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Also the fact that munjong had effectivly taken over most of the king's duties as a regent since 1442 up to sejong's death, exept for hangul. actually its speculated that he made him regent so he could focus on hangul .basically almost everything good that happened in the last decade of sejong's long 31 year reign is mostly his doing, and I feel REALLY bad, as a korean, disinheriting him in this game. its when munjong DIED when joson became seriously destabilized, which lines up with the year factional strife begins.

aso why did they remove hall of worthies decision again? 50 gold for a small permanent buff to prestige... would be very useful as korea starts with low prestige these days

now that I think about it, making sejong's death scripted at its historic date while giving munjong a 554 might balance it.

or make a new mechanic reguarding regents. say, the prestige hit thats half of a sucession, uses half of the king and prince's pips, chance to increase hier's pip thats lower then the king, and higher legitimacy when the price becimes king
 
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now that I think about it, making sejong's death scripted at its historic date while giving munjong a 554 might balance it.

or make a new mechanic reguarding regents. say, the prestige hit thats half of a sucession, uses half of the king and prince's pips, chance to increase hier's pip thats lower then the king, and higher legitimacy when the price becimes king
I'd say there should be a scripted event about the death of Munjong and the rise of Danjong/Sejo similar to the Granadan succession crisis.

I actually mentioned this in a previous suggestion here.


The Gyeyu Coup D'etat

Trigger conditions:
-The year is at least 1455
-Korea has no heir or heir is under 15 years of age
-Mean time to happen: 1 month
-Happens only once during the campaign

King Munjong, son of King Sejong the Great, passed away at the young age of 39 after a brief reign that lasted only 2 years. Although he left us many notable works such as the completion of the Hwacha and many contributions to the country's recent innovations such as the water clock, he has not left a secure succession, with his only son Hong-wi being only 12 when his father passed the throne to him.
King Munjong's brother, Grand Prince Suyang however has found the regency as a chance for him to take power, and has gathered his supporters in a coup against the young king. He may be a more capable monarch than his nephew, but accepting him as our new king may delegitimise our kingdom for the rest of his rule. What shall we do?

Hong-wi Yi shall be crowned King Danjong! We shall never support a pretender!
-Hong-wi Yi (2 2 1) comes to power at age 12
-Korea gains the following modifier until the death of Hong-wi
Supported Danjong
+1 yearly legitimacy
-0.5 unrest

Perhaps our young king would be better off spending his life in the countryside, and leave the politics to grown men?
-Yu Yi (5 4 5) comes to power at age 38
-Korea gains the following modifier until the death of Yu Yi
Deposed Danjong and crowned Sejo
-1 yearly legitimacy
+0.5 unrest

The Gyeyu coup d'etat was one of the most significant events of early Joseon history, with Sejo being one of the most controversial, yet effective kings during the era. Along with this new event, I suggest that Korea's current starting heir Hyang Yi (future King Munjong, brother of Sejo and father of Danjong) be buffed (or should I say un-nerfed) from his current 2 2 1 state. While King Munjong didn't reign for too long, his contributions to the nation during both his short rule and time as crown prince during his father's rule are not only many, but rather significant, with the most notable being his help in creating the Hangeul alphabet, inspiring court scholar Jang-yeong-shil into building the water clock, and finishing the (then) modern Hwacha. He even reformed the Korean army during his 2 year reign, aspiring to integrate his Hwacha into the main army. If his rule had any fault, it'd be that it ended too early, and he does not deserve his current 2 2 1 in anyway. Considering his lack in diplomatic skills (mostly in dealing with his wives and subsequently the Korean nobles) compared to his military innovations and administrative improvements, a 4 2 4 should be more than sufficient, and a much needed improvement from his current, rather pitiful state. The 2 2 1 is instead moved to his weak son, Danjong.
 
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Sidolowka

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its annoying.

The main problem is that revoking it becomes near impossible if you don't do it within the first 50 years, casue factional strife fires, lowering resting loyalty by a wopping 10%. the new estate mechanics are enough of a debuff to korea in that YOU CAN'T EASILY EVEN SIEZE CROWNLAND casue as korea, getting all 3 estates to 50% in and of itself is very, very costley.

My solution is buff that privlage to 15%, and give Korea more dev, as well as rework trade so that korea can get acess to tresure fleets from the entierty ofthe pacific coast colonies by colonizing and setting trade capitol to philipenes, thier logical first colonial area. buff manchu and oirat dev a bit as well as they just fail vs ming most of the time anyway to resist said korea.
Also forgot to mention, the new addition of the Polynesian triangle as a trade node does allow for Korea to divert trade from the Philippines, although

A. You need to go Philippines -> Pol. Tri. -> Nippon, which means you need to prioritise colonising a bunch of mostly useless Pacific islands, Australia and Panama for you to actually prevent trade power leak to the Europeans.

B. The only reason why you'd want control over the Philippines would be to divert trade from China, but in that case it would be far more profitable to just move your main node to China.

C. Pol. Tri. flows to Panama, not from Panama, which means the entire New world bar Mexico is still absolutely useless.

D. The amount of tags in the Nippon node makes it the Ragusa of East Asia where all the tiny tags get an unrealistic representation in trade value, meaning you recieve basically no trade income until you conquer the entirety of Japan.

Giving Korea a seperate node would be far better, while connections from Hudson Bay/Ohio/Missisipi River to California/Mexico would make the node far less garbage.
 
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Sidolowka

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I also noticed that Confucian nations recieve a clergy priviliege that increases yearly harmony by .25, so I've been thinking about a way for this new privilege to be less of a nerf and more of a tall playing option.

Here's a replacement instead of the current iteration which gives 15% dev cost reduction at 100% clergy land.

A scaling -15% dev cost that maxes out at 50% Clergy land control, also gives an extra 0.5 harmony per year while at peace, but reduces it by -2 when at war

Korea gets something slightly different similar to how France does with the French duchies

-20% dev cost at 50% Clergy land control (also scales), gives 0.5 harmony per year at peace while reducing it by -2 when at war

This means that when at peace, with humanist ideas, at max stability and with both privileges active, it is possible to gain a maximum of 2.75 yearly harmony, which means harmonising a religion will now only cost a total of 8.5 harmony instead of the normal 68. However if you are at war, it instead decreases harmony by 1 every year, which means harmonising a religion takes a huge cost of 134 harmony points, basically making it impossible to harmonise while at war.

Also please allow Confucian countries to change culture in harmonised religions. Historically this has precendence in how the various Chinese dynasties allowed other religions such as Muslims and Zoroastrians to settle freely, but slowly Sinicised them culturally (most notably in the Tang dynasty).

Maybe also give max harmony a sort of buff, because +1 ToTF at 100% harmony is a tiny buff compared to the -2 legitimacy, -25% dev cost and -3 ToTF nerf you recieve at 0% harmony. Maybe just mirror the effects on both sides?
 
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I was saving my Korea run for 1.30, but now I'm disappointed. A lot of your ideas have been really good though, Sidowlowka. I'm sure that 4% dev at normal, reasonable crown land levels is an oversight. Maybe it was supposed to be a flat 15% dev cost reduction, or a scaling 50% dev cost reduction at 100% clergy land (which is impossible). Then it'd probably sit between 10% reduction (at 20% clergy land) and 20% reduction (at 40% a massive clergy land). It'd be particularly cool if there was some kind of state interaction that could give land specifically to the clergy.

But that still that doesn't even cover the amount you'd spend on stability. Maybe it should be even more extreme -A 1:1 crown land = dev cost reduction so that at 30% crown land it's 30% dev cost reduction. That'd incentivise players to sit around devving their land for a while (getting the dev up manually to what players are asking for) and then revoking the privileged and setting out on expansion.
 
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Sidolowka

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I was saving my Korea run for 1.30, but now I'm disappointed. A lot of your ideas have been really good though, Sidowlowka. I'm sure that 4% dev at normal, reasonable crown land levels is an oversight. Maybe it was supposed to be a flat 15% dev cost reduction, or a scaling 50% dev cost reduction at 100% clergy land (which is impossible). Then it'd probably sit between 10% reduction (at 20% clergy land) and 20% reduction (at 40% a massive clergy land). It'd be particularly cool if there was some kind of state interaction that could give land specifically to the clergy.

But that still that doesn't even cover the amount you'd spend on stability. Maybe it should be even more extreme -A 1:1 crown land = dev cost reduction so that at 30% crown land it's 30% dev cost reduction. That'd incentivise players to sit around devving their land for a while (getting the dev up manually to what players are asking for) and then revoking the privileged and setting out on expansion.
I mean, hopefully this is an oversight on Paradox's part, similar to the Cossacks making steppes a straight upgrade to farmlands. A flat 15% dev cost reduction could work, but I do think a 30% dev cost reduction would be too overpowered, and would even make it worth tanking Clergy loyalty by revoking it on the day right before you declare war, then reinstating it after you declare. After all, a 30% dev cost reduction would mean 450 mana saved per institution (assuming a standard 50 cost for dev-ing once, and an institution taking around 30 dev's to spawn), which is an idea slot and a half.
 
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