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Less2

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The conceptual problem with this privilege (and the one that gives manpower from noble land) is that there's no real way to ensure a specific estate gets lots of land.

-dev cost IS a powerful modifier... when you get later in the game and can stack lots of it together. If you could get this privilege at -10% dev cost it would be quite good. Switching out privileges is fairly cheap.
 
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Sidolowka

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While playing Qing I noticed they also have a clergy privilege "inward perfection" which does what you describe. Stab hit on war dec but in return dev cost reduction based on clergy land. So you could increase that modifier by selling land to the estates.
Is that the one Korea starts with? Because from the name alone it would make no sense if Korea has it but Ming doesn't. However an idea would be to give Korea an improved version of this privilege, like France has an improved version of the nobility privilege for more vassals. That would make it useful. Korea does start with a good ruler and they'll most likely end up developing their lands early.

I'm all for increasing Korean starting development (it's pathetically low). However pushing it all the way to Japanese development would be too much.

I think the starting truce with the Manchus has to stay though. Otherwise we'd never see Manchu (or Qing) forming.
Apparently being Confucian gives you the option for choosing it, but Korea is the only country that starts with it, meaning they need to piss off their clergy to revoke it. Your idea of Korea getting a buffed version could work, but I'd say the original version would have to be buffed slightly too, for it to be even remotely useful. 10% base and 20% for Korea would make it feel like less of a railroading mechanic and more of a flavour choice.

Korea's development needs a significant buff, but not to 300. I can understand Japan's development being bloated because it's divided into multiple states (read; HRE), but Korea having similar dev to the likes of Oirat is just ridiculous. Ideally Korea's dev could sit somewhere around 250, with a few more provinces added (such as the addition of Ganghwa island I've mentioned on another thread)

That's the one, yes. I did some quick testing and basically it is 5% dev cost reduction for every 30% land hold by the clergy. That is very, very low for how much land you have to grant them. Maybe it increases if the clergy have 60%+ loyalty? IDK.

On game start the maximum amount of land you can give the Clergy is <50% even if you leave 0% crown land, because there are three estates to divide the land to. The privilege will need a significant scaling buff for it to be useful.

The conceptual problem with this privilege (and the one that gives manpower from noble land) is that there's no real way to ensure a specific estate gets lots of land.

-dev cost IS a powerful modifier... when you get later in the game and can stack lots of it together. If you could get this privilege at -10% dev cost it would be quite good. Switching out privileges is fairly cheap.

The period when dev cost becomes a powerful modifier is later into the game, where you'll likely have maximum absolutism, and be declaring wars frequently. Taking a stab hit everytime you declare war just so you get 4% off dev cost is not worth it. And at that point the only real reason you'd be dev-ing would be because you're taking it slow and have excess points left over.
 
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Less2

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The period when dev cost becomes a powerful modifier is later into the game, where you'll likely have maximum absolutism, and be declaring wars frequently. Taking a stab hit everytime you declare war just so you get 4% off dev cost is not worth it. And at that point the only real reason you'd be dev-ing would be because you're taking it slow and have excess points left over.

It's mostly powerful in MP where deving is much more prevalent and wars less frequent. Getting a large dev bonus would be worth an absolutism hit.
 

Sidolowka

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It's mostly powerful in MP where deving is much more prevalent and wars less frequent. Getting a large dev bonus would be worth an absolutism hit.
Hmmmm, haven't played MP, so I'll take your word on dev cost being important there. But I really don't think 4% dev cost is a 'large dev bonus' worth a 5% absolutism hit.
 
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lilunxm12

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If it's revocable on day 1, then it's not that annoying.
Off topic, while Ming doesn't have this, its mission tree is a complete joke. Generic tree + conquering vienam/kroea and colonize taiwan....
 
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Less2

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Hmmmm, haven't played MP, so I'll take your word on dev cost being important there. But I really don't think 4% dev cost is a 'large dev bonus' worth a 5% absolutism hit.
MP is very much about development and less about conquering, with players developing every province in their empire to 20 or more dev. Admin efficiency doesn't matter too much since the whole world is almost entirely already conquered by players by the time it unlocks. The minor discipline bonus is arguably more important, and I'm not sure how the absolutism math even works out, you might still be able to get 100%.

When you already have -80% or -90% dev cost then another -10% can be huge. But you are right 4% is a bit low. If this is supposed to be a Confucious "perk" then its a joke because other religions like Orthodox get -10% dev cost that they can turn on and off at will with no penalties
 
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EarlKonrad

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If it's revocable on day 1, then it's not that annoying.
Off topic, while Ming doesn't have this, its mission tree is a complete joke. Generic tree + conquering vienam/kroea and colonize taiwan....

It isn't very annoying, which begs the question, why does Korea starts with it in the first place? The only real reason I can see for that being the case is to push the Korean AI into not expanding early on, or at least temporarily not. But what about the newer player experience? Say you got a new player that don't know the mechanics very well, is afraid of having negative modifiers and plays Korea? That, in my opinion, is the worst case scenario.

Ming mission tree is a joke on purpose, sadly. on the 1.29 DD the devs said that there would be no Ming mission tree cause they already start out pretty powerful and it was their intention for the Ming to don't survive all the time, so adding more missions would be counter productive.
 
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Vaximillian

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Even if you give the clergy max land leaving yourself with 0% crown land (which gives you -20% tax and a bunch of horrible modifiers), it gives you 6.8% dev cost reduction.
The code says 15%:
Code:
modifier_by_land_ownership = {
        development_cost = -0.15

What’s up with that?
 

Less2

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The code says 15%:
Code:
modifier_by_land_ownership = {
        development_cost = -0.15

What’s up with that?
Because you can't hand out land just to the clergy, even if you hand out all the land you'll probably be around 33% because there are 3 estates. Maybe a bit more for clergy due to their influence but not much.
 
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EarlKonrad

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The code says 15%:
Code:
modifier_by_land_ownership = {
        development_cost = -0.15

What’s up with that?

I may be wrong, but I think I know why it shows 15%.

If you get 4% by having the clergy holding 30% land, than if the clergy holds 100% of the land than you'd get 15% dev cost reduction. That would imply that the "real" modifier is divided by percentile of land held by the estate.
 
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Sidolowka

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I may be wrong, but I think I know why it shows 15%.

If you get 4% by having the clergy holding 30% land, than if the clergy holds 100% of the land than you'd get 15% dev cost reduction. That would imply that the "real" modifier is divided by percentile of land held by the estate.
Ahhhh that makes much more sense. But there's no practical way to get the clergy to hold 100% of the land now is there? The privilege would be much less of a pain if the scale maxed out at 50%.
 
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Diplomatic Ideas do not have an effect on the stab hit.

Sidolowka

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Han anyone actually tested if the Diplomatic finisher does does get rid of the stab hit ?
Went ahead and tested it out,

DIPLOMATIC IDEAS HAVE NO EFFECT ON THE STAB HIT.

It seems that the -1 stability hit is fixed, along with the +1 war exhaustion. DIplomatic ideas do not reduce this. This also means that you take increased aggressive expansion. Revoke the privilege if you want to declare any wars.

The debug code also reads that 33% land control gives 5% dev cost, so at 99% (or basically 100%), it should give 15%. (Except it's impossible to give one estate that much land, so the feasible maximum this could reach would be around 5~7%) I'd advocate that the maximum scale be 50% crown land, with normal confucian nations getting a 15% dev cost reduction, while Korea gets 20% similar to the French duchies/Strong duchies privilege.
 
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EarlKonrad

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Went ahead and tested it out,

DIPLOMATIC IDEAS HAVE NO EFFECT ON THE STAB HIT.

It seems that the -1 stability hit is fixed, along with the +1 war exhaustion. DIplomatic ideas do not reduce this. This also means that you take increased aggressive expansion. Revoke the privilege if you want to declare any wars.

That's just sad. Is that the only case where diplo ideas don't affect stab hit, or am I forgetting something? Come to think of it, I never tested if changing native policy gives stab hit with diplo ideas.
 
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Sidolowka

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That's just sad. Is that the only case where diplo ideas don't affect stab hit, or am I forgetting something? Come to think of it, I never tested if changing native policy gives stab hit with diplo ideas.

I don't think there are any other cases bar the native policy changing one you mentioned. But at least we now know how this privilege works and why it's bad.
 

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Seems more like a needless speed bump than a game breaking thing that makes Korea unplayable. Just get rid of the privilege and the stab hit goes away. Hopefully Paradox fixes it soon, though, because privileges where the bad outweighs the good, and vice versa, end up not actually being choices and only serve to make the game worse.
 
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Lavilledieu

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If you estimate each institution to take around 2000 mana to dev, that means you save 80 points. That's not even worth +1 stability. And there's also the fact that you then need to revoke the privilege after dev-ing, meaning your clergy will lose 20% loyalty.
Sorry, but your math is wrong. Dev cost reduction applies to the base development cost, not on the total cost. You can check the wiki.
So basically, each time you dev up, you would save 50*0.04 = 2 points. To dev an institution, I believe I usually dev up about 25 to 30 times. Which, in this case, would result in saving 50 to 60 monarch points. So yes, this is even more pitiful.
 
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