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Bandua_of_Gallaecia

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I find it ridiculous that Korea only has +10% ship durability in their national ideas, literaly same as Japan, despite clearly outperforming Japan navaly.

Kora should be a top-tier naval power.
I would move their -10% building cost to their third Idea and then add a +15% Heavy Ship combat ability in their traditions.
 
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Sidolowka

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I feel like the goalposts have been moved too much to either side from the original post.

  • A. The main point was that Korea in Singleplayer is currently awful in the hands of the AI, and is simply not fun (not difficult mind you, just not fun) in the hands of the player. I've seen more instances of Novgorod surviving past 1600 than Korea.

  • B. This is because Paradox has repeatedly nerfed Korea and buffed the Jurchens so that the Jurchens can reliably form Qing. As we've seen, that doesn't happen, because after 1.29, Korea has no effect on the formation of Qing. Qing not forming is a combination of stupid horde AI and them tributarising all the Chinese minors instead of invading them.

  • C. Korea in MP is hands down fucking awful. There is literally no reason to start as Korea over, well, basically anyone else in East Asia. You could argue that Korea has easy access to forming Japan or Manchu, but that'd be the same as arguing that Manipur starts in a good position because they can culture convert and form Nagpur. Why not start as one of the Gondi nations that don't have a dogshit religion? Same goes for Korea – why not start as Jianzhou or Ashikaga? But that wasn't really my point; as I stated before, the main focus of the post was on Singleplayer.

  • D. In conclusion, I don't expect Paradox to change Korea to be an accurate depiction of its history. There are just too many people going 'REEEE SEJONG GUD SO MUNJONG MOST BE BAAD WE DONT KARE ABUT HISTORI ABOUT IRELEVANT SHIT KONTRY, KOREA MISON TRE BIG SO DOSNT MATER IT FORCES YOU TO CULTURE CONVERT WITH THE ONE FUCKING RELIGION THAT CANT CULTURE CONVERT, WHU KARES IF JAPAN HAS A BETER NAVY JUST FORM JAPAN YURSELF LOLOLOL' I just want them to roll back the last few nerfs, I.E. the inner whatever 'privilege', the 5 year peace with Jianzhou and the whole bunch of -stab/estate loyalty events that you can't do anything about. There are literally no other disasters in game that you simply cannot avoid like Korea's estate purges. Even the Castilian Civil War can be avoided by having a decent heir, with Korea you just need to sit there and eat stability hits because the devs couldn't bother adding in a proper way of solving the event.
 
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Cri11e

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I feel like the goalposts have been moved too much to either side from the original post.

  • A. The main point was that Korea in Singleplayer is currently awful in the hands of the AI, and is simply not fun (not difficult mind you, just not fun) in the hands of the player. I've seen more instances of Novgorod surviving past 1600 than Korea.

  • B. This is because Paradox has repeatedly nerfed Korea and buffed the Jurchens so that the Jurchens can reliably form Qing. As we've seen, that doesn't happen, because after 1.29, Korea has no effect on the formation of Qing. Qing not forming is a combination of stupid horde AI and them tributarising all the Chinese minors instead of invading them.

  • C. Korea in MP is hands down fucking awful. There is literally no reason to start as Korea over, well, basically anyone else in East Asia. You could argue that Korea has easy access to forming Japan or Manchu, but that'd be the same as arguing that Manipur starts in a good position because they can culture convert and form Nagpur. Why not start as one of the Gondi nations that don't have a dogshit religion? Same goes for Korea – why not start as Jianzhou or Ashikaga? But that wasn't really my point; as I stated before, the main focus of the post was on Singleplayer.

  • D. In conclusion, I don't expect Paradox to change Korea to be an accurate depiction of its history. There are just too many people going 'REEEE SEJONG GUD SO MUNJONG MOST BE BAAD WE DONT KARE ABUT HISTORI ABOUT IRELEVANT SHIT KONTRY, KOREA MISON TRE BIG SO DOSNT MATER IT FORCES YOU TO CULTURE CONVERT WITH THE ONE FUCKING RELIGION THAT CANT CULTURE CONVERT, WHU KARES IF JAPAN HAS A BETER NAVY JUST FORM JAPAN YURSELF LOLOLOL' I just want them to roll back the last few nerfs, I.E. the inner whatever 'privilege', the 5 year peace with Jianzhou and the whole bunch of -stab/estate loyalty events that you can't do anything about. There are literally no other disasters in game that you simply cannot avoid like Korea's estate purges. Even the Castilian Civil War can be avoided by having a decent heir, with Korea you just need to sit there and eat stability hits because the devs couldn't bother adding in a proper way of solving the event.

Sure, but I'm more concerned with the actual historical depiction of the national ideas.
Its unfair and a affront to all Koreans to be displayed this uninterestingly in comparison to Japan and Ming.

There is a reason why Korea survived in the onslaught of the HORDE raids/invasions, JAPAN raids/invasions and and a massive nation as China next to it for so long..
The immense historical archives to pull stuff out of would put anyone of the nations presented in the game to shame.. Even japan and china.


Please Paradox... It doesn't make sense.
 
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TheBraveGallade

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I feel like the goalposts have been moved too much to either side from the original post.

  • A. The main point was that Korea in Singleplayer is currently awful in the hands of the AI, and is simply not fun (not difficult mind you, just not fun) in the hands of the player. I've seen more instances of Novgorod surviving past 1600 than Korea.

  • B. This is because Paradox has repeatedly nerfed Korea and buffed the Jurchens so that the Jurchens can reliably form Qing. As we've seen, that doesn't happen, because after 1.29, Korea has no effect on the formation of Qing. Qing not forming is a combination of stupid horde AI and them tributarising all the Chinese minors instead of invading them.

  • C. Korea in MP is hands down fucking awful. There is literally no reason to start as Korea over, well, basically anyone else in East Asia. You could argue that Korea has easy access to forming Japan or Manchu, but that'd be the same as arguing that Manipur starts in a good position because they can culture convert and form Nagpur. Why not start as one of the Gondi nations that don't have a dogshit religion? Same goes for Korea – why not start as Jianzhou or Ashikaga? But that wasn't really my point; as I stated before, the main focus of the post was on Singleplayer.

  • D. In conclusion, I don't expect Paradox to change Korea to be an accurate depiction of its history. There are just too many people going 'REEEE SEJONG GUD SO MUNJONG MOST BE BAAD WE DONT KARE ABUT HISTORI ABOUT IRELEVANT SHIT KONTRY, KOREA MISON TRE BIG SO DOSNT MATER IT FORCES YOU TO CULTURE CONVERT WITH THE ONE FUCKING RELIGION THAT CANT CULTURE CONVERT, WHU KARES IF JAPAN HAS A BETER NAVY JUST FORM JAPAN YURSELF LOLOLOL' I just want them to roll back the last few nerfs, I.E. the inner whatever 'privilege', the 5 year peace with Jianzhou and the whole bunch of -stab/estate loyalty events that you can't do anything about. There are literally no other disasters in game that you simply cannot avoid like Korea's estate purges. Even the Castilian Civil War can be avoided by having a decent heir, with Korea you just need to sit there and eat stability hits because the devs couldn't bother adding in a proper way of solving the event.
fair.

though I find if funny that they don't flesh out korea when it literally has like an order of magnitude more written history during the period then japan does, and around half that of china, for such a small piece of land.

just looking at that gives us enough insight to say that there were legitimate plans of invading ming up to 1390 or something....
 
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iClipse

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fair.

though I find if funny that they don't flesh out korea when it literally has like an order of magnitude more written history during the period then japan does, and around half that of china, for such a small piece of land.

just looking at that gives us enough insight to say that there were legitimate plans of invading ming up to 1390 or something....

How is it not fleshed out? You could make an argument about underpowered, but fleshed out? It's not more or less fleshed out than other nations. If you're saying it's not historically correctly portraited: I mean, which country is?
 

Cri11e

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How is it not fleshed out? You could make an argument about underpowered, but fleshed out? It's not more or less fleshed out than other nations. If you're saying it's not historically correctly portraited: I mean, which country is?
Sweden is well put together imo, japan as well, england, russia.
Actually I think its easier and less time consuming to say the ones that aren't.
 
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BlazeKnight_

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I felt that...
It has become essentially a rant, but everything is pretty justified because of how absurd the entirety of Korea is. I mean, I will just quote what Sidolowka mentioned in another thread.
And I haven't even mentioned the stupid arse peasant event that gives you a permanent +2.5 unrest and -10% tax until you develop all of your garbage mountain land. The event even reads like some sort of propaganda piece denigrating Korean history –

Although Korea has experienced something of a golden age in recent years, this has not brought greater prosperity for the peasantry, who for the most part live in abject poverty. Already the first signs of discontent that could threaten Korea's stability can be seen. Steps will need to be taken to improve their lot if we are to avoid significant unrest.

Bullshit. Korea under King Sejong was walking the path of peasant-oriented policies, and the King's willingness to actively participate in farming technology improvement served to help the peasantry, not leave all of them in abject poverty. What's next, giving France a permanent -20% land morale because they're all Cheese-eating Surrender Monkeys? (read; they're not)
idk about you but I can't help but not feel offended by text that describes any kind of nation like this. The thing is, this almost insulting tone is maintained throughout all of Korea's localization, including in missions and even in the start text. I mean, just read some of this start text and I'll let you decide on your own:

The Joseon Kingdom of Korea, officially the Kingdom of Great Joseon, emerged from the ashes of Mongolia and Ming invasions via a coup d'état by General Yi Seonggye (later known as King Taejo) in 1392. From the start, Joseon Korea's connection to Ming China was strong: When settling on a name for the new kingdom, Taejo submitted the options 'Hwaryeong' and 'Joseon' to Ming and decided on the latter after its endorsement by the Emperor.

This close connection to Ming China was to remain until the downfall of the Ming in the mid-17th century - as was Korea's subordinate status in the relationship. As followers of Confucianism, Koreans viewed China as being at the heart of the Korean world, and Joseon Korea came to be in some ways even more sinicized than China itself - a 'little China'. For their part, the Chinese viewed Joseon Korea as the 'country of courteous people in the East.' For as long as Ming remains the undisputed claimant to the Mandate of Heaven, the maintenance of these strong bonds will remain vital to the survival of the fledgling Korean kingdom.

The achievements of the first century of Joseon rule were considerable. In the early 15th century, the border regions of Gyeongseong and Yukjin were taken from the Manchu, allowing the Koreans to unite the territory which would form modern-day Korea. There was also a flourishing of academia and knowledge. In particular, the hangul alphabet was introduced in 1446. Unlike the Chinese alphabet, it was designed to be both easy to learn and easy to adapt to the Korean language, making its use far more convenient and allowing a far broader section of society to read scholarly texts. Further notable progress was made in the fields of agriculture, gun powder and the codification of the law, and major efforts were made to survey and recorded the geography of the land.

However, threats to the Korean kingdom remain from both within and beyond its borders. At home, Korea's peasants remain poor, and both peasant uprisings and insufficient tax receipts are likely to become a problem if nothing is done to rectify the situation. Furthermore, although the upper class of yangban elites has for the most part been united, the cracks in this façade are already beginning to show and could erupt into factional strife at anytime.

On the foreign front lie threats aplenty. To the north await the warlike Manchu - although presently divided, should they come to be unified under a strong leader, an invasion of Korea might follow swiftly. Similarly, across the sea to the east lies Japan, a nation of warring daimyos and would-be shoguns. Korea must be vigilant, lest a united Japan seek to expand its power across narrow channel of the Korean Sea. Finally, although Korea basks in the shadow of the Ming Empire, woe betide the Joseon prince who wakes the dragon!
Now, I know that the localization does not necessarily provide concrete evidence of anything, but this does give you a general indication of how Korea is portrayed in game, let alone outside of it (in the forums by PDX themselves, where they mentioned that KOR's mission tree was more of an afterthought).
 
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Battlex

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Now, I know that the localization does not necessarily provide concrete evidence of anything, but this does give you a general indication of how Korea is portrayed in game, let alone outside of it (in the forums by PDX themselves, where they mentioned that KOR's mission tree was more of an afterthought).
It didn't expand behind starting borders and just got unsuccessfully conquered by Japan and successfully conquered by Qing irl, as well as both expansion and patch focus being away from Korea. No wonder its an afterthought.
 
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BlazeKnight_

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It didn't expand behind starting borders and just got unsuccessfully conquered by Japan and successfully conquered by Qing irl, as well as both expansion and patch focus being away from Korea. No wonder its an afterthought.
The only significant conquest that happened in East Asia was the Qing taking over the Ming. Does that mean the Mongols and Japanese should suffer the same treatment? Yeah, lets make them backwards 100 dev nations compared to the 280+ development Manchus and give them awful ideas.

East Asia is completely different from Europe. The powerful nations did not go out of their way to conquer everything they could (see, Mandate of Heaven, Confucian principles).

Conquest does not equal importance. I'm sure nobody would argue that the United States post WWI wasn't a strong nation, despite being isolationist, in a state of decay, and inwards until WWII.
 
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Sidolowka

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Thought I'd drop this here.

 

Sidolowka

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I admit it is a bit weird seeing Korea conquer half of Manchuria every, fricking, game.
Haven't seen this in... about a year and a half, considering how the Manchu patch dropped mid-2019. What I did see however was a race between Manchu and Japan for who could destroy Korea first, every, single, game.

But there are surely better ways to represent their lack of expansion than an artificial estate thingy?
You don't say.
 

Battlex

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Haven't seen this in... about a year and a half, considering how the Manchu patch dropped mid-2019. What I did see however was a race between Manchu and Japan for who could destroy Korea first, every, single, game.


You don't say.
Game or two ago I saw half of the jurchen eaten by Korea, it can happen because of just how bad horde AI is
 

Sidolowka

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Game or two ago I saw half of the jurchen eaten by Korea, it can happen because of just how bad horde AI is
Mhm, once every 150 games maybe. It's certainly not
every, fricking, game
though. And as I've said multiple different times in this thread, the answer to the Jurchens would be fixing horde AI, not nerfing Korea.
 

Battlex

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A quick reminder that this certainly didn't age well. Maybe this should instead read

'Fuck it, even New Zealand has better provinces than Korea, full stop.'
Just wait until they're ming tributaries stopping colonisation until late game
Mhm, once every 150 games maybe. It's certainly not

though. And as I've said multiple different times in this thread, the answer to the Jurchens would be fixing horde AI, not nerfing Korea.
Yes fixing horde AI would be the better solution, the issue is, the devs don't know how to write good AI, as such Korea nerfs and manchu buffs are the only options
 

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A quick reminder that this certainly didn't age well. Maybe this should instead read

'Fuck it, even New Zealand has better provinces than Korea, full stop.'
You could instead say that the Maori are better represented than Joseon.

Just wait until they're ming tributaries stopping colonisation until late game

Yes fixing horde AI would be the better solution, the issue is, the devs don't know how to write good AI, as such Korea nerfs and manchu buffs are the only options
Vanilla tributaties can only be made with a direct border as AI has -1000 reasons not to accept if there is no direct border. Ming cannot prevent their tributaries from colonizing.

Funny thing is that it isn't the only option, but the reason it came out this way is because PDX has no idea what they are doing in Asia.
Game or two ago I saw half of the jurchen eaten by Korea, it can happen because of just how bad horde AI is
Even if this does happen, it literally doesn't matter because Japan will invade Korea and annex them in one swoop anyways, then go after the Manchurians. Makes sense because the rest of East Asia is a mess. Korea is ahistorically shite, horde AI is awful (Mongols, Jurchens), and Japan is the only non-horde with real development. Guess which one of the 4 has the most consistent good games as AI.
 

Battlex

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Vanilla tributaties can only be made with a direct border as AI has -1000 reasons not to accept if there is no direct border. Ming cannot prevent their tributaries from colonizing.

Funny thing is that it isn't the only option, but the reason it came out this way is because PDX has no idea what they are doing in Asia.
.
It was tongue in cheek
Even if this does happen, it literally doesn't matter because Japan will invade Korea and annex them in one swoop anyways, then go after the Manchurians. Makes sense because the rest of East Asia is a mess. Korea is ahistorically shite, horde AI is awful (Mongols, Jurchens), and Japan is the only non-horde with real development. Guess which one of the 4 has the most consistent good games as AI.
Japan might, in most of my games japan much like China rarely fully unifies once a strongman has formed, and then by late 1600 when I normally quit, they haven't gone into Korea yet, might be Ming working better this patch
 
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