Paradox: Please remove Shattered Retreat and Coalitions

[Crenickator]

I dunno maybe Charlie, the AI version at least, needs something extra as a mass coalition of Pagans and English OPM seems very ahistorical.

I dont think Coalitions are bad its just they dont work very well, Abbablob is doing its thing and it doesnt have any coalitions formed against partly because vassals do a lot of the conquering.

Under the current conditions, there's no way Abboblob would have been able to get as big as it is without having the entire world arrayed against it. Just didn't happen, even when the Bizzies were begging for help or entirely eaten.

How do conquerors like Seljuk and Genghis deal with this? I haven't played long enough yet to catch them at their best.

 

[Dracko81]

I and many made the assumption that, given it listed 700+%, that it would roll over as with most other numbers in CK2.

However, this does not undermine the point that is being made: why is all of Christianity forming a coalition with the Muslim and Pagan world to fight? Is the Pope's crowning of Charlemagne and others not a claim on "Rome"? Why is he in the coalition as well? It's just absurdities on absurdities. In context, a restored Roman Empire from either end is probably something the entire world would fear...

...but sticking to the game mechanics, I don't think it really makes sense to have religious enemies all over the world dogpiling the bad boy in the same alliance.

So you tested it and made an assumption based on testing it. That doesn't really add up, if you tested it you would have seen quite quickly that the assumption was wrong.

The point being made was that infamy was going to last 400 years and any war would result in a war against everyone. Which is false, based on misleading information and plain and simply a strawman.

The sooner you stop supporting false information the sooner your going to get to what your problem is. Even the Muslim and Pagans in a coalition with Catholics isn't a big deal.

A lot of people here seem to think I am pro coalition, but I guarantee you're not going to find something to support that. My opinion on the matter is much more detailed than anyone on the forums has discussed. Both from a balance and mechanic standpoint. But until you actually spend time experimenting and playing through scenarios you're not likely to come to the same conclusions. I could make a point right now that everyone who has posted in the thread will agree with. However I won't because people need to form their own opinions based on actual experience, rather than dogpiling onto soemthing someone else has said and making strawman arguments that are just plain stupid.

 

[Olaf the Unsure]

Marching around the enemy's countryside, snapping up smaller armies and hounding them to their destruction, has as far as I know absolutely no basis in history. It was extremely difficult to force an unwilling foe to give battle. An army that had no chance of winning could simply march away - an army in column, after all, moves much faster than an army in battle array. You could harass a moving army, but unless you got between it and its water or food source, it was very difficult to make it fight. When armies gave battle, it was for strategic reasons (ie, to break a siege) or political ones (if you declined, your vassals would wander off.)

I think you're talking abstractions here - not what's actually happening in the game. These are routed - shattered, fleeing remnants of armies - somehow moving hundreds of miles deeper into hostile territory and away from, not toward, their base of supply and then somehow regaining strength and reforming into a fight-capable army. That's not even close to historical.

 

[Drakken]

After playing 1066 France a bit and engaged with a defensive war against HRE and winning, my definite answer to OP is :

Get out of here. Paradox, please ignore him.

War has never been more fun now with Conclave and the new 2.5 patch. Now that sieges last way longer than before, wars become more nerve-racking and suspenseful, and the defender has reasons to avoid combat until the right moment to strike.

 

[Kurek]

chasing around these armies is really annoying, , plus I had some viking ruler of southern Wales retreating around Wales through about 4-5 of my provinces to get to Cornwall and then making the return trip at least three times whilst I was chasing the asshole down, both annoying and amusing in a bad way.

 

[Drake_Hound]

After playing 1066 France a bit and engaged with a defensive war against HRE and winning, my definite answer to OP is :

Get out of here. Paradox, please ignore him.

War has never been more fun now with Conclave and the new 2.5 patch. Now that sieges last way longer than before, wars become more nerve-racking and suspenseful, and the defender has reasons to avoid combat until the right moment to strike.

Are you playing the same game as AI and me ? we don´t siege we siege and assault

 

[Dracko81]

Now that sieges last way longer than before

Siege length has not changed. But Shattered retreat definitely favours the defender.

 

[Steel_atlas]

Under the current conditions, there's no way Abboblob would have been able to get as big as it is without having the entire world arrayed against it. Just didn't happen, even when the Bizzies were begging for help or entirely eaten.

How do conquerors like Seljuk and Genghis deal with this? I haven't played long enough yet to catch them at their best.

Charlie seems to be the only AI to get coalitions formed, and thats because he inherits his bros lands and claims saxony.

 

[Steel_atlas]

Siege length has not changed. But Shattered retreat definitely favours the defender.

Ehh I think it favors the bigger power, decisive battles dont matter as much now, just having bigger armies.

 

[Dracko81]

Are you playing the same game as AI and me ? we don´t siege we siege and assault

Which lowers your morale and troop count opening you up to counter attacks. The AI doesn't seem to chase you deep into your realm for obvious reasons.

 

[Drakken]

chasing around these armies is really annoying, , plus I had some viking ruler of southern Wales retreating around Wales through about 4-5 of my provinces to get to Cornwall and then making the return trip at least three times whilst I was chasing the asshole down, both annoying and amusing in a bad way.

I don't chase beaten foes. I besiege castles, limit attrition, and take territory, as it should be.

 

[Drakken]

Siege length has not changed. But Shattered retreat definitely favours the defender.

There are a lot more garrisons left in county baronies. Thus yes, they last longer.

 

[Dracko81]

Ehh I think it favors the bigger power, decisive battles dont matter as much now, just having bigger armies.

I tried a few games in France 1066 against HRE, and won each time by using the fact my troops regenerated and his didn't in my territory. Obviously there is also the fact of Human Vs AI there but it wasn't really a contest.

There are a lot more garrisons left in county baronies. Thus yes, they last longer.

What version did you just upgrade from? Baronies and vassals levies haven't raised for over 2 years now. The amount of levies in holdings is unchanged from the previous 2 versions at least.

 

[Drake_Hound]

Which lowers your morale and troop count opening you up to counter attacks. The AI doesn't seem to chase you deep into your realm for obvious reasons.

Have you tried I am having huge success with sieges and assault I learned it from the AI

 

[Dracko81]

Have you tried I am having huge success with sieges and assault I learned it from the AI

Good luck doing it against a human player of equal size. You are not doing it against a target you have won against already anyway.

 

[jpinard]

History isn't really relevant though, because you can't simulate that for every case. Your clearly in the camp of I don't like it because I don't like it and nothing will change my mind.


That is literally impossible. Unless they have modded the game in some way.


Wait you have 100% warscore and you can't press peace? That sounds like a bug and nothing to do with shattered retreat.

This happened 2 days ago so before I got the expansion. It is the learning scenario. All the tutorial stuff is now done, and I'm onto my son who is 25. I wanted to try and reunite Spain under me. The area I was after is in the Pyrenees mountains.

 

[Drake_Hound]

Good luck doing it against a human player of equal size. You are not doing it against a target you have won against already anyway.

LOL you mean you are sieging something of equal size ? ... hmm sounds good plan to siege something of equal size.

Yeah I mean really good plan couple of casaulties or events and your troops stand there like can´t siege anymore. too Little men.
Well you can learn something from the AI once you beat off the army means you have more then enough troops to quickly siege and assault all the holdings. unless somebody has increased it´s fortification to a certain level

 

[Dracko81]

This happened 2 days ago so before I got the expansion. It is the learning scenario. All the tutorial stuff is now done, and I'm onto my son who is 25. I wanted to try and reunite Spain under me. The area I was after is in the Pyrenees mountains.

I'm not sure how the tutorial game plays out, I just jumped in head first myself and started as the Duke of Lothian in my first game.

I'm assuming the war has ended now though? If you are still playing the game from 2.4.5 in the latest version you might notice some strange things. It might be best to start the game over or try something else. Unless you are invested in that game, than by all means keep going.

But the war sounds like a bug of some sort and I will try a tutorial game later to see if there is something wrong.

 

[Ted101]

Hey guys, I just realized that Coalitions and Shattered Retreat are both easily removable and are easy to tweak. Simply go to defines.lua and open it with notepad (notepad++ preferably).

Change the 1 to 0 in the following lines:
LEAVE_COALITION_INTERACTION_ENABLED = 1,
START_COALITION_INTERACTION_ENABLED = 1,
SHATTERED_RETREAT_ENABLED_COMBAT = 1,

This should completely remove both features from gameplay.

By the way, there are many other lines that affect both features. You can tweak them however you want without removing them. For example, you can lower the speed of the Shattered Retreat. It is currently set to 1.3. Changing it to 1 will make Shattered Retreats the same speed as normal armies.

Here are all the ways you can change Shattered Retreat to suit your preferences:

Spoiler

SHATTERED_RETREAT_ENABLED_COMBAT = 1, -- Enables shattered retreat for combat if set to 1
SHATTERED_RETREAT_ENABLED_SIEGE = 0, -- Enables shattered retreat for sieges if set to 1
SIMPLE_RETREAT_ENABLED_SIEGE = 0, -- Enables simple retreat for sieges if set to 1

SHATTERED_RETREAT_MOVEMENT_MULTIPLIER = 1.3,-- Multiplier of unit movement speed when shattered
SHATTERED_RETREAT_MORALE_MULTIPLIER = 1.5, -- Multiplier of morale regain when shattered

SHATTERED_RETREAT_PREFERRED_PROVINCES = 4, -- Units will try to move at least this many provinces away in shattered retreat
SHATTERED_RETREAT_MAX_PROVINCES = 10, -- Units can not move longer than this many provinces during a shattered retreat
SHATTERED_RETREAT_DISTANCE_MULTIPLIER = -2, -- Multiplier for distance after the SHATTERED_RETREAT_PREFERRED_PROVINCES first provinces when evaluating retreat provinces
SHATTERED_RETREAT_OWN_UNIT_MULTIPLIER = 0.1, -- Multiplier of own units in province when evaluating retreat provinces
SHATTERED_RETREAT_WAR_FRIEND_UNIT_MULTIPLIER = 0.05, -- Multiplier of war friend units in province when evaluating retreat provinces
SHATTERED_RETREAT_ENEMY_UNIT_MULTIPLIER = -0.3, -- Multiplier of war friend units in province when evaluating retreat provinces
SHATTERED_RETREAT_NEIGHBOUR_UNIT_MULTIPLIER = 0.3, -- Multiplier for all unit bonuses/penalties in neighbouring provinces when evaluating retreat provinces
SHATTERED_RETREAT_OCCUPIED = -20, -- Added for occupied provinces when evaluating retreat provinces
SHATTERED_RETREAT_OWN_REALM = 200, -- Added for own realm controlled provinces when evaluating retreat provinces
SHATTERED_RETREAT_OWN_CAPITAL = 30, -- Added for own realm controlled provinces when evaluating retreat provinces
SHATTERED_RETREAT_WAR_FRIEND = 150, -- Added for war friend controlled provinces when evaluating retreat provinces
SHATTERED_RETREAT_ENEMY = -250, -- Added for enemy controlled provinces when evaluating retreat provinces
SHATTERED_RETREAT_SAME_RELIGION = 30, -- Added for same religion controlled provinces when evaluating retreat provinces
SHATTERED_RETREAT_SAME_CULTURE = 10, -- Added for same culture controlled provinces when evaluating retreat provinces
SHATTERED_RETREAT_SAME_GOVERNMENT = 15, -- Added for same government controlled provinces when evaluating retreat provinces
SHATTERED_RETREAT_RANDOM = 10, -- Added random factor when evaluating shattered retreat provinces
MERCENARY_CREATE_LEVY_RATIO = 0.25, -- Amount of max levies used to calculate the maximum size of non-nomadic dynamic mercenaries.

And for Coalitions:

Spoiler

COALITION_JOIN_THRESHOLD = 110, -- AI will join a coalition if the coalition score is above this value
COALITION_LEAVE_THRESHOLD = 70, -- AI will leave a coalition if the coalition score is below this value
COALITION_TROOP_STRENGTH_THREAT_RATIO = 0.8, -- AI will consider a realm to be a threat if it has a valid CB against you and the AI is this much smaller in army strength
COALITION_PROVINCE_THREAT_RATIO = 0.2, -- AI will consider a realm to be a threat if the AI is this much smaller in number of provinces, regardless of CB's
COALITION_TROOP_STRENGTH_PROTECTION_RATIO = 0.7, -- AI will consider a coalition to need assistance if a member is of your religion/culture/dynasty and the target is not, and the coalition is this much smaller in army strength
COALITION_PROVINCE_MULTIPLIER = 1.0, -- Multiplier of realm provinces, added to coalition score
COALITION_INFAMY_MULTIPLIER = 4.0, -- Multiplier of realm infamy, added to coalition score
COALITION_DISTANCE_MULTIPLIER = -1.1, -- Multiplier of distance between two rulers, added to coalition score
COALITION_SMALL_THREAT_MULTIPLIER = 0.6, -- Multiplier to the entire coalition score for small nations target has no CB on
START_COALITION_INTERACTION_MONEY = 0,
START_COALITION_INTERACTION_PIETY = 0,
START_COALITION_INTERACTION_PRESTIGE = 0,
START_COALITION_INTERACTION_THRESHOLD_FOR_NO = 0,
START_COALITION_INTERACTION_THRESHOLD_FOR_YES = 0,
START_COALITION_INTERACTION_MUST_HAVE_COST = 0, -- Is having prestige/piety >= cost required for this action?
START_COALITION_INTERACTION_ENABLED = 1, -- Should this action be used at all?

LEAVE_COALITION_INTERACTION_MONEY = 0,
LEAVE_COALITION_INTERACTION_PIETY = 0,
LEAVE_COALITION_INTERACTION_PRESTIGE = 0,
LEAVE_COALITION_INTERACTION_THRESHOLD_FOR_NO = 0,
LEAVE_COALITION_INTERACTION_THRESHOLD_FOR_YES = 0,
LEAVE_COALITION_INTERACTION_MUST_HAVE_COST = 0, -- Is having prestige/piety >= cost required for this action?
LEAVE_COALITION_INTERACTION_ENABLED = 1, -- Should this action be used at all?
COALITION_INFAMY_LIMIT = 25, -- The amount of provinces in a realm that is needed for beeing a valid target of a coalition
COALITION_SIZE_RATIO = 0.9, -- Realms larger than the target * COALITION_SIZE_RATIO are not allowed in a coalition

 

[Dracko81]

LOL you mean you are sieging something of equal size ? ... hmm sounds good plan to siege something of equal size.

Yeah I mean really good plan couple of casaulties or events and your troops stand there like can´t siege anymore. too Little men.
Well you can learn something from the AI once you beat off the army means you have more then enough troops to quickly siege and assault all the holdings. unless somebody has increased it´s fortification to a certain level

The option is definitely valid when you have already won the war, but I meant if you had 20k troops and the enemy had 20k troops, you're not marching across the borders and sieging everything down. That is just suicide.

Personally I prefer to win the first battle and then divide up the troops so I get 5% on several provinces at once and wait for 8 months for the castles to be sieged down followed by the town and church inside a year. If you spread your forces properly you can easily siege enough to win the war inside a year. But large army warfare has so many different things you can do.