Paradox, please real Westernization

[Will Steel]

After the 16th century, which non-western states had comparable technological advancements?

Actuallty, technological gap between Europe and Asia only emerged after mid-late 17th century, not in 16th century. And that doesn't mean the non-Europeans were that behind, there were still many innovations not seen elsewhere, like military rockets or advancements in traditional medicine equivalent to western cures, and such.

 

[Afinati]

Actuallty, technological gap between Europe and Asia only emerged after mid-late 17th century, not in 16th century. And that doesn't mean the non-Europeans were that behind, there were still many innovations not seen elsewhere, like military rockets or advancements in traditional medicine equivalent to western cures, and such.

That would be why I said "after" the 16th century.

 

[WeissRaben]

2 ez.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Liaoluo_Bay

A fleet was sunk because they thought they were safe? It sure points at technological inferiority!
Now, it's time to give primitive tech to the United States in HoI4, because surely Pearl Harbor is proof of their technological inferiority!

Come on, really? Will you ignore that those ships were European-style ships as well, maybe? I think you will - it would run counter to your thesis, after all. Let's also ignore that Liaoluo Bay was a Ming victory, too, shall we?

 

[Will Steel]

Maratha Empire, under Sarkhel Kanhoji Angre had built a large navy of ships completely based on a fusion of Indian and European ship designing, who weren't that different from each other. And he was superbly effective at raiding Europeans arriving in India and never lost once in his life.

In the game? Marathas get Indian ships who sink like paper boats against Europeans in the 18th century. In reality they were usually as well armed and crewed, not that different in size and design (but developed separately, mainly a fusion of Arab, Indian, SE Asian ship designs), and later Marathas bought cannons from French. Even without giant ships of the line, those ships were able to face European ships and defeat them where they could win.

Likewise, Chinese Junks had cannons on them and weren't that weak either...to fall that easily as in the game.

This should be changed in the game I think.

 

[frolix42]

A fleet was sunk because they thought they were safe? It sure points at technological inferiority!
Now, it's time to give primitive tech to the United States in HoI4, because surely Pearl Harbor is proof of their technological inferiority!
Come on, really? Will you ignore that those ships were European-style ships as well, maybe? I think you will - it would run counter to your thesis, after all. Let's also ignore that Liaoluo Bay was a Ming victory, too, shall we?

Please

The decisive encounter happened on October 22 when Zheng's fleet met the Dutch ships and fifty ships from Chinese pirate allies. Zheng ordered his fleet to ignore the latter and focus on attacking the Dutch fleet. Knowing that the Chinese ships could not match the Dutch ships in a firefight, Zheng Zhilong instead resolved to use fireships. In order to fool the Dutch to expect otherwise, Zheng chose to use large warjunks as the fireships, decking them with cannon and soldiers (who were equipped with bamboo tubes and were to jump overboard just before crashing the ship into the enemy fleet).[9]

But most people will read whatever their personal bias directs them to.

 

[Clausewitz_]

@Wiz Are there any plans to implement a logistics system into EU4? If some of the major issues that faced European overseas expansion(Disease, the inability to leave their mainland unprotected, etc.) were modeled into the game, then making modernization harder/more fluid wouldn't screw over ROTW like it would now. But honestly a full technology rework system for non-western/eastern would be better IMO but that's a long-shot

 

[Alerias]

But shouldn't the current system be improved somewhat at least?

Yes, it should, definitely. Victoria 2 handled it much better so surely it is possible.

Super-easy westernization used to be sort of necessary because the gap in unit pips made any non-western army a joke later on. Since this is no longer the case and the penalties for poor tech groups have been lowered in various ways (mainly power penalties) we could have an improved westernization system that is more gradual as the game isn't "westernize or die" anymore.

 

[LinusLinothorax]

Westernization is a retarded, unhistorical aspect of the in general retarded tech-tree mechanic anyway (RotW with the exact same tech-tree as Europeans, just researching European technologies slower). But Paradox is and will always be too lazy to make RotW nations justice and develop a unique tech-tree for them. But well, the game is called Europa Universalis, right?

 

[WeissRaben]

Please


But most people will read whatever their personal bias directs them to.

...and? The modern fleet got sunk with a sneak attack, so Zheng decided to bypass rebuilding them (too costly and taking too much time) in favour of assembling a fireship fleet, which them proceeded to win the battle.

 

[grommile]

But Paradox is and will always be too lazy to make RotW nations justice and develop a unique tech-tree for them.

"Too lazy" suggests you think it would be easy, since declining to do something hard because it's not an effective use of your time isn't lazy.

 

[qwertzuiop]

I don't really understand people asking for more limited/harder westernization. To have an interesting gameplay, it is very important that the gap between different countries or regions of the world does not get too big and the current "easy" westernization achieves exactly that. Making the process more difficult would only benefit people who are playing European countries only. It would take away some variety from the game.

Then there is the historical perspective - it's true that the current westernization mechanics aren't that historically plausible, but then are the different tech groups plausible?

1444 Ming had decisively begun it's stagnative decline relative to Europe and it's ever-increasing backwardness is apparent in the Tumu crisis of 1449. By the 1500s it becomes obvious, European Heliocentrism, Government, Firearm construction, Naval tech, medicine were beginning to leave Chinese science behind. This gap increased through the 1600s and 1700s and by the 1800s not even massive Chinese superiority in numbers could prevent European imperialism from dividing China. Assuming that up until the moment that Europeans began carving up China that Ming had close to parity with European Tech and Doctrine is the same kind of short-shortsightedness that caused China to stagnate in the first place.

If that is true, then why didn't the European colonial powers carve up China in the 1500s? Why did it need three centuries for that magical European superiority to unfold? How is Heliocentrism relevant for the conquest of other countries?

 

[Xinkc]

In the game? Marathas get Indian ships who sink like paper boats against Europeans in the 18th century. In reality they were usually as well armed and crewed, not that different in size and design (but developed separately, mainly a fusion of Arab, Indian, SE Asian ship designs), and later Marathas bought cannons from French. Even without giant ships of the line, those ships were able to face European ships and defeat them where they could win.

I thought all tech groups (minus the ones without them completely) had the same ships.

 

[moscal]

Westernization is a retarded, unhistorical aspect of the in general retarded tech-tree mechanic anyway (RotW with the exact same tech-tree as Europeans, just researching European technologies slower). But Paradox is and will always be too lazy to make RotW nations justice and develop a unique tech-tree for them. But well, the game is called Europa Universalis, right?

If this is EUROPA UNIVERSALIS - where is UNIVERSALIS!?!?!?!

In EU4 time is age DEATH OF UNIVERSALISM!!! Papal universalism is DEATH! Imperial (roman) universalism is DEATH! Islamic universalism is DEATH!

EU is not game of the conflict papal and imperial ideology (universalism). So name has no connection with the game.

Ergo - >removed<

 

[LinusLinothorax]

"Too lazy" suggests you think it would be easy, since declining to do something hard because it's not an effective use of your time isn't lazy.

Yeah, its definetly harder than making some minor twinks which one person could have made in one afternoon and sell them for 15$.

 

[Xinkc]

If this is EUROPA UNIVERSALIS - where is UNIVERSALIS!?!?!?!

In EU4 time is age DEATH OF UNIVERSALISM!!! Papal universalism is DEATH! Imperial (roman) universalism is DEATH! Islamic universalism is DEATH!

EU is not game of the conflict papal and imperial ideology (universalism). So name has no connection with the game.

Ergo - Закрой свой рот!!!

I don't think you understand the post you're quoting.

 

[Alerias]

The entire concept of tech groups could be reworked into something a bit more dynamic that applies to everyone - that would probably be a great way to go. That would require a big DLC tho.

 

[LinusLinothorax]

The entire concept of tech groups could be reworked into something a bit more dynamic that applies to everyone - that would probably be a great way to go. That would require a big DLC tho.

A dlc which is actually worth the 15$ (Mad fanboys incoming).

 

[grommile]

A dlc which is actually worth the 15$.

Thing is, the tech group rework would need to go into the free patch.

 

[LinusLinothorax]

Thing is, the tech group rework would need to go into the free patch.

I am sure Paradox finds a way to melk the customers with that.

 

[Will Steel]

I thought all tech groups (minus the ones without them completely) had the same ships.

They do, but stats most probably differ.