Good-faith dealing (despite your... intriguing choice of name) tells me you think this solves a problem.
I am having real trouble imagining any problem in the game that this actually solves.
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Paradox, please real Westernization
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I am having real trouble imagining any problem in the game that this actually solves.
I've not read the thread but just wanted to state I agree with the OP.
Personally I have edited a file which makes westernisation impossible - but it does mean I cannot get achievements or play in iron man
I understand that westernisation happen historically after this period and thus there is no such thing as 'real' westernisation during this period. I am not adverse to having westernisation even if it is ahistorical but currently it's just to easy and the whole world is westernised quite swiftly and it really really bugs me. I'd be happy if by the end of the game a handful of countries had westernised but not the entire globe.
Personally I have edited a file which makes westernisation impossible - but it does mean I cannot get achievements or play in iron man
I understand that westernisation happen historically after this period and thus there is no such thing as 'real' westernisation during this period. I am not adverse to having westernisation even if it is ahistorical but currently it's just to easy and the whole world is westernised quite swiftly and it really really bugs me. I'd be happy if by the end of the game a handful of countries had westernised but not the entire globe.
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This feels like being annoyed that the massive cancer growing on your neck makes turning your head a little harder.
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Lol, this almost killed me
This reminds me my feelings about glasses I started to wear: most annoying thing was looking into rearview mirror while driving a car - with small glasses you need to move your whole head to see sharp picture in the mirror, when before glasses it was just a gaze with your eyeballs
Sorry for off top
Oh, no, it solves nothing. But I'm honestly not able to solve this perceived problem - though I don't think of it as really much of a problem, honestly. Sure, the current system fails at historical immersion, but so does just about everything in this game. And it's not like the westernized nations aren't still horribly behind in tech and ideas anyway (unless their name is Ming of course). The way I see it, the only problem people have with Westernization is that it disables their super awesome Casus bellis. Hence, the pithy comment.
As for my choice of name, it's several years old and from a time in my life when I actually believed I was smarter than those around me. Lived experience has, as it usually does, taught me otherwise, but I keep the name around.
Singling out westernization in the context of this game on the basis of realism is fundamentally irrational. It is impossible to make a thread that *only* calls out westernization being unrealistic without it being necessarily hypocritical.
Calling out its limitations as an engaging strategy decision (or rather, how it isn't one at all) or pointing out that it can be done in a way that makes the game less dull for everyone involved isn't necessarily hypocritical, but saying "westernization isn't realistic and thus shouldn't be in the game" is overt hypocrisy, a non-argument devoid of self-consistency.
Calling out its limitations as an engaging strategy decision (or rather, how it isn't one at all) or pointing out that it can be done in a way that makes the game less dull for everyone involved isn't necessarily hypocritical, but saying "westernization isn't realistic and thus shouldn't be in the game" is overt hypocrisy, a non-argument devoid of self-consistency.
Okay! After spending some time thinking about this, I've decided to actually try and come up with an idea for Westernization that would please, while not everyone, possibly more people than the current model does now. Firstly, allow me to state that I do not believe Westernization should be player-only. In my opinion, this simply gives ROTW players an even bigger advantage over the AI around them than they already have, as they can Westernize and then kick around their neighbors with impunity. I believe that Westernization should be costly, but worth the cost, and I don't believe just any nation should be able to Westernize. I also believe that Westernization should have a viable alternative, but alas, I wasn't able to think of one. Perhaps someone else can help think of an alternative. But for now, here's my idea. Actually going serious mode here. I propose the following changes.
1. In addition to the current rule of being 7 technologies behind a Western neighbor nation (or owning the cores of said nation, or said nation owning your cores), I believe that Westernization should require opening and fully completing one of the following idea groups: Administrative, Innovative, Humanist. I chose these idea groups because to me, they give the feeling that your nation is gearing up to be ready to Westernize. I'm not fully happy with the choices of Administrative or Humanist, but I want the player to have options aside from just Innovative, and those two seem the best choices.
2. I believe that an additional tech group should be created: Westernized. It would have one key difference with the Western tech group: in order to Westernize off a Westernized tech nation, as opposed to a Western tech nation, a nation must be 11 techs behind the Westernized nation, rather than seven. I feel this will help slow the flow of "chain-westernizing" without eliminating it entirely, which makes little sense from a realistic perspective.
I would create a mod to emulate these changes, that I may test them out and see their effects on gameplay, but sadly I have no skill or experience in modding, and I'm not even sure if these changes could be implemented in a mod. Thus, I am hesitant to say that I'm confident these changes would improve the flow of the game, but at the very least, I'd love to test it out if anyone would be willing to give me a hand with the modding.
1. In addition to the current rule of being 7 technologies behind a Western neighbor nation (or owning the cores of said nation, or said nation owning your cores), I believe that Westernization should require opening and fully completing one of the following idea groups: Administrative, Innovative, Humanist. I chose these idea groups because to me, they give the feeling that your nation is gearing up to be ready to Westernize. I'm not fully happy with the choices of Administrative or Humanist, but I want the player to have options aside from just Innovative, and those two seem the best choices.
2. I believe that an additional tech group should be created: Westernized. It would have one key difference with the Western tech group: in order to Westernize off a Westernized tech nation, as opposed to a Western tech nation, a nation must be 11 techs behind the Westernized nation, rather than seven. I feel this will help slow the flow of "chain-westernizing" without eliminating it entirely, which makes little sense from a realistic perspective.
I would create a mod to emulate these changes, that I may test them out and see their effects on gameplay, but sadly I have no skill or experience in modding, and I'm not even sure if these changes could be implemented in a mod. Thus, I am hesitant to say that I'm confident these changes would improve the flow of the game, but at the very least, I'd love to test it out if anyone would be willing to give me a hand with the modding.
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Why are you limiting your audience by requiring an above average IQ to understand your posts *confused face*
Sadly, IdiotsOpposite, I don't think your idea has any chance of getting implemented because it feels more like a temporary fix to the problem. Wiz has said a few times that he doesn't want to change the system unless it is to a much better system, no half or partial measures.
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Unfortunately, I don't have the intellectual capacity to make grand, sweeping changes, so small fixes are all I really have to work with. It might still be fun to see just how it affects Westernization spread, though.
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I don't get why is there Westernization at all. Only Russia westernized in this time period, right? But whatever, we can even build the freaking Panama Canal in the 1700s...
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Well, there's always the alternative of making the rest of the world, especially the New World completely and totally unplayable forever. In a game where tech group provides such major maluses (60%, 75%, dear god 150%), not having a way to escape those maluses is going to make any tech group worse than Eastern punishing, and any tech group worse than Nomadic utterly pointless. Either the whole idea of tech groups would need to be reworked, or Westernization stays.
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You are asking a wrong question. A right question would be why westernization is even something considered necessarily useful, and why the major disparity exists in this timeframe outside the new world/certain portions of Africa in the first place.
It's like a badly-implemented stopgap to make Asian/African/New World nations "more viable", although nothing in the new world is competitively viable regardless. This is an arcade game more than a sim one (evidenced by coalitions, truces/lengths, AI alliance behaviors, religion mechanics, colonization mechanics, fort gravity wells, supply considerations, vassal feeding, and more), so singling out westernization itself is irrational.
Also, multiple new world native American nations "westernized" in this time period based on how the game treats it...arguably what they did is closer than how Russia went about it. They were simply conquered afterwards anyway because they didn't have the population or economy to defend themselves regardless of adopting western practices.
Regardless, singling out one mechanic among many as "unrealistic" when its sole purpose of existence is to help keep more options viable is nonsense.
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I see your point. Westernization can't go away without a deep reformulation (or extermination) or many other gameplay mechanics. So, which alternatives we have?
Several. Rather than a more punitive westernization, I've long been in favor of a model where there is no westernization, but you can reduce tech costs through triggered modifiers, whose conditions vary by tech group. That even gives flexibility to western itself, and could model the difference between northern Italy and Ireland in the period. It would also allow everybody's favorite baby-CBs to stay viable all game, even if their opponent techs up.
Another more crude but also less flagrant implementation than we have now would be to scrap both westernization and most of the tech penalties, but introduce variances back into units or something else, or create tech-incentives towards well developed core locations.
Finally, the process could be handled entirely like "reforms" currently are handled for primitives...IE you pass through them and then you have less expensive tech progressively, but retain original tech group.
The reason I favor triggered modifiers is that a nation that falls behind on requirements isn't guaranteed top-tier tech progress rate any longer. To stay on the edge of innovation, you must maintain conditions that allow it.
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If you do not like westernization you should get rid of many other things as well
- nerfs to natives (ships, CB, coring, colonization, reforming, ... etc. rules, the list is really long here)
- colonizers sending 50k stacks to colonies and calling all allied Europe to send tens of thousands troops to colonies in their colonial wars
- and many more not directly related to European presence overseas (like AI doing total war, naval combat, diplomacy and war rules, accepted culture and culture conversion mechanics, ..., ..., ... )
- nerfs to natives (ships, CB, coring, colonization, reforming, ... etc. rules, the list is really long here)
- colonizers sending 50k stacks to colonies and calling all allied Europe to send tens of thousands troops to colonies in their colonial wars
- and many more not directly related to European presence overseas (like AI doing total war, naval combat, diplomacy and war rules, accepted culture and culture conversion mechanics, ..., ..., ... )
I would remove westernization for most nations to be removed and only be available for some nations. It is sad to see that every nation on planet as the western tech group before 1800 , when nations which turned to western in Rl where a minority
To balance thing up, ROTW nations should be stronger and not a complete cat walk. And there should be a system to make sure that doomstacks of 40k soldiers aren't send overseas, leaving no chance to the natives. In fact, with a system limiting how many troops you send overseas, games as ROTW would be more interesting
To balance thing up, ROTW nations should be stronger and not a complete cat walk. And there should be a system to make sure that doomstacks of 40k soldiers aren't send overseas, leaving no chance to the natives. In fact, with a system limiting how many troops you send overseas, games as ROTW would be more interesting
I really like this idea, mainly because Western nation can fall behind in tech and/or not have to start 100% tech costs, but something like 130% and have to progress like the rest of the world (e.g. Enlightenment).
So at the start, Muslims should be equal or better than Europeans, but as time progresses, one or the other may fail to meet the requirements (in history, Muslism lost around the 1700's) and the other may progress, perhaps even below 100% tech costs.
Of course, depending on your religion/culture-group/government form the factors may vary, so China has it's own problems and Europe have their own, and both require different ways to progress, which would make the game even more replayable.
The Western to Westernized tech group a while ago was also good, but less game-changing. I feel at least this should be done if the above fails.
I don't remember who mentioned it, but someone once used an example of a Ming that conquers all of England and forces England to relocate out into an island in the south Atlantic or something, and then argued that in this case Ming should be more Western than England is because England doesn't have the resources to maintain it's tech edge. That seemed pretty sound to me, and that's a lot like what you're suggesting here. It's a good idea.
I think that after that has happened England being western when maybe it shouldn't is really not the biggest problem you have in terms of realism (and western is really about your way of thinking rather than resources).
Personally I think that the game needs to have more things to do as a ROTW nation that do not involve westernizing. The ROTW should not play like EU except with a 50 year westernization period at the start. They should have rewarding regional goals that they can accomplish without westernizing.