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TheMeInTeam

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Going after players purely for how they placed last time is a fool's errand - look at yonaz, who is now super-strong in Bahmanis, and the power vacuum in East Europe that emerged. The only ones who benefit from a power vacuum are the ones there to fill it, and you can't win just by having a strategy for someone else to lose.

On the other hand, if the perceived expected performance between two players is so great that you fear a relatively weaker position in the hands of a stronger player, it is rational (assuming the assessment is accurate) to target down the stronger player regardless. This is for a scenario where French player is stacking diplomatic ideas and has only naval ideas or something. It doesn't sound like what will happen here, but sometimes it really is worth getting rid of a good player, because poor players are much easier to deal with when large.

It's the kind of gambit that can get you annexed by France though, who doesn't appear to be that kind of target.
 
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Wizzington

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France and Burgundy are both very good players.
 

SknerusMck

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Wiz, I see why are you such a great diplomat. I would fear you and your diplomatic tricks in a MP game :p. And that's why maybe I would do the same move as Austria ;).
 
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Gringovoir

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Yeah - instead of having the entire West be dependent on him, Austria wants to make himself dependent on France and Burgundy. It's completely irrational but there's not much I can do about that.

EDIT: To put it in context, there were two offers for Austria on the table today. My alliance offered Naples if he'd help us take back three provinces in Spain for Spain, after which he'd go back to guaranteering both sides.

Outcome: My alliance slightly weakened, their alliance slightly weakened, Austria slightly strengthened.

The other offer was for him to join France and Burgundy, get Naples, and FRA+BUR would take 10-15 provinces from me, after which he'd leave France and Burgundy free to pummel us until we were gone.

Outcome: My alliance vanishes, France and Burgundy massively massively strengthened, Austria slightly strengthened.

Which looks like a better deal to Austria?

I wonder what Burgundy could gain from dismantling English France and Spain. Shouldn't Burgundy be (or become later) a natural enemy of France. This alliance can't live long. If so, than killing your alliance and then betting on French-Burgundy struggle may in fact be beneficial for Austria. Outcome: everyone weekened, Austria strengthened.
 

yerm

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On the other hand, if the perceived expected performance between two players is so great that you fear a relatively weaker position in the hands of a stronger player, it is rational (assuming the assessment is accurate) to target down the stronger player regardless. This is for a scenario where French player is stacking diplomatic ideas and has only naval ideas or something. It doesn't sound like what will happen here, but sometimes it really is worth getting rid of a good player, because poor players are much easier to deal with when large.

It's the kind of gambit that can get you annexed by France though, who doesn't appear to be that kind of target.

This is a tunnel vision and one sided approach. It's not all bad, but it's lacking. If Wiz routinely wins or at least places well, what is the solution? Certainly you can gang up on him and the other cream of the crop players to ensure they lose, and this will probably work if executed and followed through. This doesn't really win though. It opens the game to the opportunists poised to fill the vacuum. It just scrapes the top off and leaves a new top, which might or might not include you. Far better to identify where the winner wants to go, or how they usually go, and block their ability to win. Make a deal with other powers to divide up that territory and leave him out. Peacefully divide up the new world so he can't get his foot in the door there. Partition the rest of France and wall him off the rest of the continent unless he wants to fight you all.

For Austria, for anyone, you have to make major choices with the simple goals set in your mind: what is the short term cost/benefit? How does this help and hurt long term? How does this look to others as it happens? How will this change my diplomatic position long term? In this context, it MIGHT be cost effective short term, and it probably helps diplomatically short term, but it's a long term suicide if you ask me. If you're worried about Wiz becoming too strong, the long-term answer is not to create an even stronger barrier between you, that has a far easier time expanding back into you later than trying to cross the channel. If you build up a strong France, it will want to go somewhere, and pushing east into a surrounded Austria is far easier than trying to land troops in the isles, especially when that failed disastrously once already this game!

Wiz, I see why are you such a great diplomat. I would fear you and your diplomatic tricks in a MP game :p. And that's why maybe I would do the same move as Austria ;).

I see this all the time in board games. Ironically, and unfortunately, it's VERY often in my experience that the best players also give out the best suggestions. The players who try to stubbornly avoid letting the winning players "trick" them inevitably always lose as a result.

I wonder what Burgundy could gain from dismantling English France and Spain. Shouldn't Burgundy be (or become later) a natural enemy of France. This alliance can't live long. If so, than killing your alliance and then betting on French-Burgundy struggle may in fact be beneficial for Austria. Outcome: everyone weekened, Austria strengthened.

Burgundy does not necessarily have to. If they lock up the channel and push east northeast (Scandi is slumping this game anyway), and France pushes down into Genoa node and the Medit, they don't directly compete. Pretty sure the last one had a Netherlands and France hugbox, yes?
 

TheMeInTeam

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This is a tunnel vision and one sided approach. It's not all bad, but it's lacking. If Wiz routinely wins or at least places well, what is the solution? Certainly you can gang up on him and the other cream of the crop players to ensure they lose, and this will probably work if executed and followed through. This doesn't really win though. It opens the game to the opportunists poised to fill the vacuum. It just scrapes the top off and leaves a new top, which might or might not include you.

No matter what else you do, the idea is that you're trying to win. The idea is indeed to be that "new top", and the extent you target the top is contingent on the relative perceived threat level of the remaining players.

I've won a few MP matches in other games applying exactly this principle, over a player that, in a vacuum, was significantly more skilled (or put another way, I was very good, other player was elite, and lots of other players were closer to average). The more one player sticks out over competition, the more utility you get in targeting that player specifically, even if in absolute terms it doesn't give as much immediate payoff. But the end goal never changes; the person making this decision should be trying this because they believe it gives them the best possibility to win themselves. As long as you don't lose that perspective, it's potentially viable.

Let's say Austria has strong reason to believe that even as France eliminates Wiz, he can somehow outgrow France and in turn win that land. Regardless of whether that's correct, if one legitimately believes that, then targeting Wiz is not an unreasonable choice.

I've been on both ends of this. I used to hate getting diplo-dogpiled from being among the better players in a group, but over time I came to accept that as a reality of the balance of power in play.
 

Stolen Rutters

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There were stability issues with the build so there was no stream today in the end.
Of course, "disaster" and "why did it have to break" meant the game itself broke, duh. I should have taken those first statements at face value instead of thinking they were a cryptic lead-in to something going crazy with alliances and/or outcome.

I'll lurk next week then... :)
 
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yerm

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No matter what else you do, the idea is that you're trying to win. The idea is indeed to be that "new top", and the extent you target the top is contingent on the relative perceived threat level of the remaining players.

This is the crux of it, and I agree a lot more with this post! If Austria wants to gang up on the winner, so be it, and good on them... but they need to do so not on a "Wiz has to be stopped!" basis and instead on a "how will this help ME win?" one. If we play a MP game and I get everyone to team up on you, and it leaves me in an even more threatening position than you were in, the other players were foolish to help take you down. My worry with Austria is that England may be a threat to winning overall, but France is a threat to them personally and directly on top of a block to expansion outlets. Something has to give, and it's not likely to be the Eastern Europe hugbox IMO.

That's really the long and short of my point. A big France is a threat to Austria, even moreso than a bigger England in the same place. A big Burgundy is a block to Austria. Further, England's natural expansion outlets and easy goals mean that it can work in tandem with Austria for likely most if not all of the game without issue. Burgundy not at all. France much less so. France can draw a trade node line with Burgundy and probably go an entire game as friends. Austria trying to do so, from the last pictured position, is untenable - you give France the Genoa node and get what? England, Spain, and Hungary have expansion outlets in the opposite direction to you that make it worthwhile to be friends. France does not.

Like I'm just trying to theorycraft a rational long term strategy for Austria that comes from a tight friendship with France. Team up on Spain? They'd get Iberia while you get Italy. You're still boxed in just as much as before. Team up on Burgundy and give France the Channel/Champ node while you take Rhine/Germany? That was potentially yours (and the only thing potentially yours) anyway, they've given you nothing, and now you're hugging a west-coast France that sees you as far and away the easiest place to expand. Let them cut into Lubeck and Scandinavia too so they skip you and keep moving North? You've handed them the game. Fight them over the Netherlands area later with new allies? Why not just carve them up now while it's easier?
 

matk

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You all must be much better at letting go once the game is over: my previous gaming group dissolved after we played 2 games of Diplomacy because of the negotiations and backstabbing that went on. Most of the members were simply not able to sort out the game from reality - it made for a couple very awkward sessions before the rest of us just went our own ways.
 

hashinshin

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You all must be much better at letting go once the game is over: my previous gaming group dissolved after we played 2 games of Diplomacy because of the negotiations and backstabbing that went on. Most of the members were simply not able to sort out the game from reality - it made for a couple very awkward sessions before the rest of us just went our own ways.
Sounds like terrible people to play a game with. Do they throw a tantrum if they lose at board games?
 

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So, just to clarify: There was no multiplayer game today, and the whole "When England called, Russia answered" thing is just the devs trying to make their behind-the-scenes diplomacy more interesting?
 

Golladan

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Looks like Sweden dodged a bullet there. I believe its lands would have been fair game this week.

If the Milan player misses next week too, would those lands be fair game? Or would the immunity be granted due to this week's session being cancelled?
 
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Baron Tanks

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Call me old fashioned or short for time, but I'm not willing to/cannot always make the time to watch the livestream or dedicated the time to watch it back. I therefore always enjoyed the written battle reports including maps. Since this is all being streamed again, the updates have become less punctual and seems to this time be completely absent. Can I petition one of the players (didn't @Groogy make them?). To just post a map with some session highlight bullet points? I don't really care about the scores, just want to see. I notice people talking about a French/Burgundian block versus central/southern Europe and the British Isles, it'd be nice to have reference map with this.

Hope it's not too much trouble. If you feel it's a bit late for this session, perhaps next week again? Cheerio :)
 

londoner247

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Call me old fashioned or short for time, but I'm not willing to/cannot always make the time to watch the livestream or dedicated the time to watch it back. I therefore always enjoyed the written battle reports including maps. Since this is all being streamed again, the updates have become less punctual and seems to this time be completely absent. Can I petition one of the players (didn't @Groogy make them?). To just post a map with some session highlight bullet points? I don't really care about the scores, just want to see. I notice people talking about a French/Burgundian block versus central/southern Europe and the British Isles, it'd be nice to have reference map with this.

Hope it's not too much trouble. If you feel it's a bit late for this session, perhaps next week again? Cheerio :)

They didn't stream this week. The game proved too unstable and they didn't play so the total stream time was about five minutes of @DDRJake talking about how (as viewers could see) it wasn't working but they were going to try and fix it for next week.