Paradox Lounge (Off-Topic)

[Longinus]

how is he? I got the impression that he was a determined and knowledgeable man, dedicated to his cause when I read the first posts in your old court. Is there anything else you could tell me about him?

he is a medieval knight and prince to the bone from what I know, like Mett said, zelaous Catholic. the only thing that stopped him from crusading against Pskov (and he recieved enormous support from HRE, mainly in form of loans) was politicks i.e. Pommern and Bremen who preferred peace in the region (as Pskov-Novograd is their trading partner)

 

[Blade!]

.... His only weakness: Algerian belly dancers. ...

...and hot wax...

 

[unmerged(10239)]

...and hot wax...

Ooh we have Tunisian belly dancers and hot wlaks, thats the next best thing I suppose?

Edit: Sorry for the appaling pun.

 

[unmerged(9770)]

I think I refered a good number of time to the Duchy of Bar in this civil war. I think you'll find the French part of that domain to have been conquered by the League of Arras, at the time.

They were identified, in my court, as being part of Lotharingia, and map wise, it is part of Lotharingia. So I based myself on that to RP that land during the civil war, and I don't think anyone cared to RP it before.

Ok, I joined the game not so long ago, and the civil war was already played then. But, you know, I care to RP duchy of Bar. ( It just took me some time to get involved to the game in general, to make some research about Angevines etc. ).

Jaron and FB consequently RP-ed Rene as duke of Bar, and , browsing Neil`s court I didn`t noticed that anybody made them obstacles.

Some links:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2472586&postcount=57

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2981162&postcount=262

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2466723&postcount=55

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2443708&postcount=51


Also, from the frontapage of Neil`s court.

Burgundian titles held by foreign princes
Johann III, Duke of Bremen - Comte de Boulon
Marie-Elisa, Duchess of Bremen - Comtesse de Rhûne
René, King of Naples - Duc de Bar
Gioacchino, Duke of the Piedmonte - Comte de Saint-Claude
Henryk of the Greif - Comte de Louhans

I've based my RPing on what was under my control map-wise. If you refer to FB's claim, he said he was pressing the claim on Lotharingia, thus acknowledging that he wasn't in control of the land, but was looking to be recognised as such by Lotharingia.

On a purely mechanical basis, and on a historical RP perspective, both Lorraine and Bar look to be in the same situation. Both were conquered by Burgundy back in the days, and no one dared bring the subject up to the crown of Loth when it was established. And so on..

As far as I know Lorraine was conquered, but Bar wasn`t. It isn`t part of Lorraine, actually Duke of Bar was vassal of France, but I didn`t want to complicate it even more ( new map wasn`t published back then ) and assumed that Rene, as the duke of Bar is vassal of the Loth crown.

Well, I don`t know FB`s claims good, but I know Rene`s ones


So - here it goes.

1) duchy of Bar - In 1419 Rene`s granduncle, the Cardinal Louis duke of Bar, adopted him as inheritor of the duchy of Bar.- So, this way he inherited the title of duke o Bar.

Historically, In 1430, the sudden death of his granduncle, Cardinal Louis of Bar, made René the duke of Bar, so it happened after players started to change the history, but I assume that also in game Rene`s grandunlce died, unless he is immortal. – so this way he took control over it.


2) duchy of Lorraine - In 1420, when he was thirteen years old, René was married to Isabelle, the ten year old heiress of Lorraine. ( imagine that, guys J ) Isabelle`s parents were duke Charles II of Lorraine and Marguerite of Bavaria, By the time René was twenty, in 1429, he and Isabelle had four children: Louis, Yolande, Jean, and Marguerite.

1431, duke Charles II the Bold of Lorraine died, and René claimed the dukedom in his wifes right. He was immediately involved in a fight for that right with his wifes uncle Antoine de Vaudémont, who defeated and captured René at the battle of Bulgnéville on July 2, 1431.

I understand that the “succesion war” in Lotharingia between Rene and his uncle has never happened becouse the history had changed until then, and duchy was controlled by other characters.

In game Rene was trying to get his duchy but, King Louis rejected to accept Rene d`Anjou as Duke of Lorraine, so he holds only the title now.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

what this game needs is fanatical muslims who loath the Almohads, their fancy shmancy ways, and hate all the west with em

 

[unmerged(10239)]

what this game needs is fanatical muslims who loath the Almohads, their fancy shmancy ways, and hate all the west with em

Well join the game again then

 

[unmerged(31994)]

i might, Rl is getting better

 

[BusterBunny]

It isn`t part of Lorraine, actually Duke of Bar was vassal of France, but I didn`t want to complicate it even more ( new map wasn`t published back then ) and assumed that Rene, as the duke of Bar is vassal of the Loth crown.

I understand what you`re saying.

Unfortunately, Champagne was conquered by England in 1423. Burgundy bought it back from England in 1427. According to the map, this included Bar (makes sense, it was Valois...).

So I assume England didn't stop at the border of Bar when they conquered Paris and Champagne. And I assume that Burgundy bought the whole thing back.

King René can claim all the titles he want. It seems the crown of Lotharingia controls both the taxes and the troops.

 

[Longinus]

I understand what you`re saying.

Unfortunately, Champagne was conquered by England in 1423. Burgundy bought it back from England in 1427. According to the map, this included Bar (makes sense, it was Valois...).

So I assume England didn't stop at the border of Bar when they conquered Paris and Champagne. And I assume that Burgundy bought the whole thing back.

King René can claim all the titles he want. It seems the crown of Lotharingia controls both the taxes and the troops.

well, we can assume a lot of things here, thing is they didn't happend IC, if they didn't talk about Bar IC than it din't happend IC, period. wanna example? the Duchies of Brunswick.

EDIT: btw, even if we DO assume (and don't count me in this "we") that Bar was indeed sold to Burgundy, it seems Loth King Louis gave it back to Rene as he recognised him as the Duke of Bar simple as it is

 

[unmerged(9770)]

well, we can assume a lot of things here, thing is they didn't happend IC, if they didn't talk about Bar IC than it din't happend IC, period. wanna example? the Duchies of Brunswick.

EDIT: btw, even if we DO assume (and don't count me in this "we") that Bar was indeed sold to Burgundy, it seems Loth King Louis gave it back to Rene as he recognised him as the Duke of Bar simple as it is

well, the problem of a little non-historic sovereignity of loth crown over the Bar would be this way also explained.

 

[BusterBunny]

well, we can assume a lot of things here, thing is they didn't happend IC, if they didn't talk about Bar IC than it din't happend IC, period. wanna example? the Duchies of Brunswick.

I was answering assumptions with assumptions, hence why I asked that we should bring the case to Ladislav and not bother about it in public. It's the problem with assumptions: everyone's right and wrong at the same time.

I never got Bourbon either, so I guess I should give it back to the duchy of Bourbonnais. I surely never RPed Liege either, so I should give it back to... Brabant, I guess. Idem with Rethel, I never RPed it, so no one can say I ever got it.

Same thing with Savona. After all, the treaty that gave Genoa to Burgundy never said anything about Savona...

But, we still assume, to this day, that the original map prevailed, and by "County of Champagne", we meant all that was encompased as Champagne at the time.

EDIT: btw, even if we DO assume (and don't count me in this "we") that Bar was indeed sold to Burgundy, it seems Loth King Louis gave it back to Rene as he recognised him as the Duke of Bar simple as it is

He recognised the title, yes. And then changed idea when I came in. Of course, perhaps I don't have the right to decide for King Louis...

 

[N Katsyev]

how is he? I got the impression that he was a determined and knowledgeable man, dedicated to his cause when I read the first posts in your old court. Is there anything else you could tell me about him?

He's evil incarnate. Just better keep looking over his shoulder.

 

[Longinus]

I was answering assumptions with assumptions, hence why I asked that we should bring the case to Ladislav and not bother about it in public. It's the problem with assumptions: everyone's right and wrong at the same time.

I never got Bourbon either, so I guess I should give it back to the duchy of Bourbonnais. I surely never RPed Liege either, so I should give it back to... Brabant, I guess. Idem with Rethel, I never RPed it, so no one can say I ever got it.

Same thing with Savona. After all, the treaty that gave Genoa to Burgundy never said anything about Savona...

yeah, actually I think you should do all of it

He recognised the title, yes. And then changed idea when I came in. Of course, perhaps I don't have the right to decide for King Louis...

oh, oh, and when did he do it huh, I don't recall it? either way, if he did it, he force annesed it illegaly (never to be RPed btw). btw, I don't think Beher disagrees with the idea of Bar being Burgundian on the map, he said earlier that if it will be done IC (i.e. that Bar was annexed by Lotharingian King/Queen whatever) he will comply, but it will give him a strong CB against the said King/Queen/whatever

anyway, on the other hand, to quit squabbling, I say we should include all changes or none. Bavaria should thusly own all the provinces she owned in the EUII map, same with France and Pommern (even though as Pommern I will immiedately give it back to Bremen), does it sound reasonable to you BB?

 

[BusterBunny]

oh, oh, and when did he do it huh, I don't recall it? either way, if he did it, he force annesed it illegaly (never to be RPed btw). btw, I don't think Beher disagrees with the idea of Bar being Burgundian on the map, he said earlier that if it will be done IC (i.e. that Bar was annexed by Lotharingian King/Queen whatever) he will comply, but it will give him a strong CB against the said King/Queen/whatever

Just look at the first page of my court. Look at the maps...

Or look at the description of Lorraine...

THE DUCHY OF LORRAINE

Includes
Nancy
Blamont
Vaudémont
Bishophric of Metz
Duchy of Bar
Free City of Metz
Free City of Verdun
Longwy
Bishopric of Toul

Or Champagne:

THE COUNTY OF CHAMPAGNE

Includes
Troyes
Langres
Brienne
Part of the Duchy of Bar
Bar
Chalons
Reims
Vertus
Pays de Rethel
Grandpre
Roucy
Laon
Guise
Joinville

And then in this post, it clearly states that the duchy of bar is part of the directoire, thus taxed and levied by the Crown of Loth:

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3505339&postcount=11

So I take it that Louis didn't do much in the way of letting King Rene do much about that title.

And so on during the war.

anyway, on the other hand, to quit squabbling, I say we should include all changes or none. Bavaria should thusly own all the provinces she owned in the EUII map, same with France and Pommern (even though as Pommern I will immiedately give it back to Bremen), does it sound reasonable to you BB?

Even if Bar isn't part of Loth, I won't say its unreasonnable. So obviously what you are proposing is reasonnable. It's a new set of rules, and we could argue for hours, days and months.

 

[unmerged(9770)]

I was answering assumptions with assumptions, hence why I asked that we should bring the case to Ladislav and not bother about it in public. It's the problem with assumptions: everyone's right and wrong at the same time.

I`ve made all that "research" exactly on purpose to stop assumptions.

"everyone's right and wrong at the same time" - I don`t agree. Anyway that sentence reminds me your "battle of Dijon" post, heheh. I don`t see it like that.

I never got Bourbon either, so I guess I should give it back to the duchy of Bourbonnais. I surely never RPed Liege either, so I should give it back to... Brabant, I guess. Idem with Rethel, I never RPed it, so no one can say I ever got it.

Same thing with Savona. After all, the treaty that gave Genoa to Burgundy never said anything about Savona...

Well, this is your affair, do what you think you should with that, this has nothing to do with Bar.

But, we still assume, to this day, that the original map prevailed, and by "County of Champagne", we meant all that was encompased as Champagne at the time.

And then changed idea when I came in.

You posted about Bar several times indeed, but you didn`t mention that Rene was casted away from Bar?

hence why I asked that we should bring the case to Ladislav and not bother about it in public

I think that public way of solving affairs is the better. It gives a chance for arguments and evidences to win. I`m not fond of silent back-stage talks.

 

[BusterBunny]

BTW, I agree it would give Rene a very good CB against Loth. And I surely won't oppose anyone recognizing Rene as Duke of Bar, or Duke of Anjou, or Duke of Lorraine. As I wrote previously, the Directoire is about to recognize the title anyhow.

Of course, we'd LOVE it if Rene would care to come talk to one of my guys

 

[Longinus]

BTW, I agree it would give Rene a very good CB against Loth. And I surely won't oppose anyone recognizing Rene as Duke of Bar, or Duke of Anjou, or Duke of Lorraine. As I wrote previously, the Directoire is about to recognize the title anyhow.

Of course, we'd LOVE it if Rene would care to come talk to one of my guys

thing is, as Bher mentioned a minute ago, there is not a single thing about Bar being annexed and Rene dismounted from there. last I noticed it was Rene riding in pomp to the camp with the banners of Bar, nobody seemed to disagree. IC, Rene is assured that Bar is his, for heaven's sake, even you mentioned about it several times and now changeing the course?

 

[unmerged(9770)]

Just look at the first page of my court. Look at the maps...

Or look at the description of Lorraine...

Or Champagne:

I know them, but what does it have in common with fact that Rene owns Bar? I don`t get it.

And then in this post, it clearly states that the duchy of bar is part of the directoire, thus taxed and levied by the Crown of Loth

I know all the posts you which mention Bar in your court. As for this one - Rene as a duke of Bar is part of the directoire. Simple.

Taxied and levied - as all vassals, nothing new.

It's a new set of rules, and we could argue for hours, days and months.

It`s matter of reason in my opinion. I would appreciate if you read and answered my arguments.

 

[BusterBunny]

I`ve made all that "research" exactly on purpose to stop assumptions.

Fair enough. But you did says you "assumed Rene was vassal of Loth" in your previous post. Hence answering assumptions with assumptions

Well, this is your affair, do what you think you should with that, this has nothing to do with Bar.

It's exactly what I'm doing I'm against all of it. Not just for my country, but for all of them. And I'm sure you're not limiting your view to just Naples, but to all of the countries in similar situations.

You posted about Bar several times indeed, but you didn`t mention that Rene was casted away from Bar?

I can't control René. He's not the character of my country. It's the sad thing with the RPG, we need authorization to control other people's characters. King René is "indigenous" for lack of better words, to Naples.

I think that public way of solving affairs is the better. It gives a chance for arguments and evidences to win. I`m not fond of silent back-stage talks.

Well, I recognize you have valid arguments, but also I recognize that I have valid arguments. We need someone to make a decision, and that's what the head moderator is there for. And as you can see, I'm witholding any further involvment about Bar in the hopes that we will settle the issue, and whatever the decision is, it won't create a mess with the story I wrote about.

But obviously, we're not solving much with public displays, so I'll again refer the question to Ladislav.

 

[BusterBunny]

Re-reading it, I think I'm confused.

You want the title or the territory?