Paradox Interactive Acquires White Wolf Publishing from CCP Games

[Ardent]

I'm slightly boggled to see someone come onto Paradox's forums and suggest that schedules should be a business' "primary responsibility". Like, you do know this company's development history?

Every aspect of a project is important but making sure the final product is the best possible response to the buyer's wants/needs is the only thing that counts. That might be blowing the schedule, it might mean blowing the budget but to prioritize one aspect over all others is to risk the project failing to meet anything but that aspect.

Paradox does not typically come to me before they start making a game and ask me to finance its production, make a lot of promises, and smile happily as I hand my cash over. They certainly do not deliver beta products that look like they were made by two dudes in a garage in their spare time. Their response to feedback is never "get lost, your criticism isn't fawning enough," and the delivered product almost never leaves me feeling like I've wasted my money. Some are more engaging than others, of course, but that's just how these things go.

 

[noblehunter]

They're usually pretty good with customer relations, true, but they've had some pretty dodgy releases. CK1 most notably but HoI3 is worth a mention. They also published Sword of the Stars 2 which wasn't even a beta product. Speaking of delays, half of us are supposed to be playing HoI4 right now...

The lessons they've learned from those debacles is one reason I stay with them. One of those lessons seems to be to have enough cash on hand that they can hold off release until a game is done. With a community as small as grand strategy or tabletop RPG fans, compromising on schedule (if it's an option) is probably better than compromising on quality.

 

[Odd_Canuck]

So... Another new forum member from the OPP world here. Have some of the PI games, some don't appeal some do, but I find them generally well done. For context, I only occasionally dip into any WoD stuff and primarily stick to Exalted for gaming preferences.

Just wanted to chime in that I'm looking forward to seeing what video games come out of the IP handover.



And as for the "what happens with the WoD and cWoD" question, I'd offer the following thought chain:

A video game is most likely wanting to capture a modernized feel but still akin to the classic world of darkness.

PI has no great reason to care about offshoots and appendix products to that central world, so as long as they're profitable for OPP/IP nWoD and Exalted are apt to continue.

There *is* advantage to having an advertised and supported (maybe even so far as doing a print run) version of the Table top RPG property that you are using as the video game... the video game boosts TTRPG sales, and TTRPG sales increase interest in the video game... not nearly as much in the latter case, but it does work.

OPP already announced they were doing Vampire 4e, a modernized game largely based off the oWoD metaplot set in a more modern time frame.

I'd strongly suspect that the new 4e stuff is going to be the video game basis going forward, which would mean that the only impact on the WoD game lines is that the new game line is going to get the best and brightest talent to do the writing and development on both the TTRPG and the video game side.

 

[Ryue]

I realize people are going to disagree with me, but these are people who've never had to do work on contract. They don't understand how your results matter more than your relationships with your suppliers.

This isn't subjective. (Well, the quality of the art might be.) They failed to meet the terms of contract as outlined. They failed to meet those terms at least four times over. If I'm looking to contract someone to work for me, I look at that and go "Yeah, that's a problem." If I see someone reacting to irate customers the way Rich Thomas did? I say "Yeah, that's a problem." If I see someone lie to customers the way Rich did? I say "Yeah, that's a liability" and I'm done.

Iam a programmer jobwise and in the past worked for contracts. And also iam an indie game developer hobbywise who hired artists time and again. So let me say this:

From experience deadlines can sometimes not be achieved. Even if one gives it all. As ways taken turn into dead ends or too many unexpected things happen.


And as for artists. Uhm you would havr to fire 90% of them. And tjose are already of the 5% who are reliable leaving you with no artist at all in essence if you fire those who dont meet deadlines. At least my experience so far.

To make it a bit more visible. If you take 20 artists only 3 have the dedication for a long term project. And are reliable. And at max 1 of them is MOSTLY on time.

That means in essence: you are lucky to get things on time. And even if you calc in delays already believe me you have always calced in too few delays. And if you fire ppl after each delay. You wont have someone reliable left at all.

As note though i took my artist experience there as example as that is the most prominent example from my projects. Although with programmers i have the same experience. And i take a very likely guess that its the same when someone hires freelancers for printed media/books.

You need to find ppl who are good and reliable. And when xou got those few. You have to oberlook a few delays as else you got nobody left at all to work with. Or grt only crap work.

 

[Palp]

In that model CWoD could be still central setting where "proper" metaplot is moving and NWoD just gets "adventure books" on the way to incorporate now Event to the toolbox of it. And if I'm right, I will be really glad, as I was looking for something like this in to NWoD - official "chronicle books", without derailing toolbox itself of base systems.

Yes, I dont think meta plot is necessarily a bad thing but I would really like to see it kept separate from the source books. For NWOD keep making the source books with the Day 0 standpoint, then do meta plot with adventure models and if needed chronicle books that is a bit sourcebooky now and then describing setting wide ones (but do not let those change day 0.) and basically same for CWOD. Do not do it like in old CWOD days where it was in all the books and changed the setting again and again.

 

[Johnny X]

I'm all for the reintroduction of the metaplot but only if we have something like the Avatar Storm every month.

(Seriously, how have we got 16 pages without a Mage version war?)

Metaplot was great if you bought supplements for reading, but a big ache in the nethers if you had a long-running campaign and one night one of your players came in and said 'guess what, someone just nuked Ravnos'. You then go through all the rigmarole of working out if you want to include that in the campaign and if not which bits of future material you need to mess with. Now, imagine having to go through all that every time something is released because White Wolf advanced the metaplot every time they published anything.

Revised is far better just for that. Cool stuff happened in the past and you can uncover those mysteries, but now is just normal times and it's up to your players to make the exciting things happen. You haven't got Caine, the Wyrm and the Archmasters depriving your group of agency and rolling that metaplot truck down the hill.

 

[WyrdHamster]

(Seriously, how have we got 16 pages without a Mage version war?)

Because Awakening fans are much more cultural and do not want to needlessly derail topic? But truly - both Mage games are so much different, "edition wars" do not have any meaning.

 

[nick012000]

(Seriously, how have we got 16 pages without a Mage version war?)

Because everyone was arguing about Exalted instead.

 

[Kareruren]

I

(Seriously, how have we got 16 pages without a Mage version war?)

Its likely because with M20...we can all have what we want? Thank you Phil

 

[Tapio]

White Wolf used to be my favorite gaming company growing up, Paradox is my favorite now. Can't wait for the first crpg/strategy game announcement base on the World of Darkness as it used to be.

 

[Randin]

Another person here who felt obliged to make an account in response to this news. I'm kinda in the odd place in that I am very much a fan of the World of Darkness, but I'm not really a pen and paper roleplayer (I like the setting, but pen and paper roleplaying just isn't my thing), so the news that WoD is going to be expanding out from being a purely pen and paper property is great. Of course, I'm much more a fan of the New WoD than the Old WoD, so...I guess we'll see how that goes.

That said, I have been thinking about how the NWoD could work in terms of PC games, especially considering the fact that Paradox is almost certainly going to want to make heavy use of the OWoD. So it becomes a question of how it could work for Paradox to make use of both of them simultaneously. This is what's come to mind with regards to how to do that.

So I figure the key to using both would be to make sure that the two settings are clearly differentiated in the minds of the playerbase, so that they don't get confused about why, for instance, the different vampire clans keep changing from one game to the next. I'd imagine that if Paradox is concerned about this kind of brand confusion, a simple place to start would be the names of the settings, as them having the same name would probably be cause for confusion with anyone who isn't already invested in one of the settings. Personally, if they felt like changing the name of the NWoD (because let's be honest, they aren't going to be changing the name of the OWoD) would make it a more usable property, I'd consider that a reasonable price to pay.

Beyond that, if they want to differentiate the settings in the minds of gamers, I would say that the obvious next step would be to use each setting for very distinct and separate types of games. In the case of RPGs, use each setting with different RPG sub-genres, ones that play to each of the settings' perceived strengths.

So for the OWoD, I would go for what I'll call Bioware-style RPGs--ones with a heavy focus on story, writing, and creating interesting characters, and generally leveraging the hell out of the accumulated lore that's built up in the setting.

And for the NWoD, aim for Bethesda-style RPGs--where the focus is less on story and more on setting, creating a big open world sandbox with cool stuff in it, where the player gets the experience of playing a vampire (or werewolf, or mage) in the big city.

Sure, the New and Old WoDs are two settings built on similar foundations, so even with this there might still be some initial confusion, but if Paradox is in for the long haul, I'd be willing to bet that the confusion would soon subside, and people would understand what each setting brings, and which ones they're interested in.

 

[Ryue]

Another person here who felt obliged to make an account in response to this news. I'm kinda in the odd place in that I am very much a fan of the World of Darkness, but I'm not really a pen and paper roleplayer (I like the setting, but pen and paper roleplaying just isn't my thing), so the news that WoD is going to be expanding out from being a purely pen and paper property is great. Of course, I'm much more a fan of the New WoD than the Old WoD, so...I guess we'll see how that goes.

That said, I have been thinking about how the NWoD could work in terms of PC games, especially considering the fact that Paradox is almost certainly going to want to make heavy use of the OWoD. So it becomes a question of how it could work for Paradox to make use of both of them simultaneously. This is what's come to mind with regards to how to do that.

So I figure the key to using both would be to make sure that the two settings are clearly differentiated in the minds of the playerbase, so that they don't get confused about why, for instance, the different vampire clans keep changing from one game to the next. I'd imagine that if Paradox is concerned about this kind of brand confusion, a simple place to start would be the names of the settings, as them having the same name would probably be cause for confusion with anyone who isn't already invested in one of the settings. Personally, if they felt like changing the name of the NWoD (because let's be honest, they aren't going to be changing the name of the OWoD) would make it a more usable property, I'd consider that a reasonable price to pay.

Beyond that, if they want to differentiate the settings in the minds of gamers, I would say that the obvious next step would be to use each setting for very distinct and separate types of games. In the case of RPGs, use each setting with different RPG sub-genres, ones that play to each of the settings' perceived strengths.

So for the OWoD, I would go for what I'll call Bioware-style RPGs--ones with a heavy focus on story, writing, and creating interesting characters, and generally leveraging the hell out of the accumulated lore that's built up in the setting.

And for the NWoD, aim for Bethesda-style RPGs--where the focus is less on story and more on setting, creating a big open world sandbox with cool stuff in it, where the player gets the experience of playing a vampire (or werewolf, or mage) in the big city.

Sure, the New and Old WoDs are two settings built on similar foundations, so even with this there might still be some initial confusion, but if Paradox is in for the long haul, I'd be willing to bet that the confusion would soon subside, and people would understand what each setting brings, and which ones they're interested in.

One thing though for the owod and nwod is.....power level.
I've played all 3 versions (owod, nwod, nwod 2.0) and I can say that owod has the highest power level for vampires and werewolves. Nwod was......low powerlevelwise....a human could beat a starting vampire there without too much problems.....nwod 2.0 has rectified this a lot but still the power level is imho still quite lower than in owod thanks to automatic successes not existing in nwod (2.0).


As for me I'm primarily curious what is going to happen and how (new pc games with wod settings would be quite nice but I'm also curious as to what is going to happen with the setting as such and also who is going to make the books,....).

What I quite dislike is the multipages discussion about just the exalted KS. I think EVERYONE already got it that that ks had went wrong but also that OP had learned from it and did way better afterwards.But it sounded to me still like just bash bash bash and oh bash. And then there is everyone freaking out just because of a few words and a new IP owner.

I mean hey we don't really have ANY info yet what is the plan and what is going to happen with the IP, WW, OP, .... so why freaking out yet already? It serves no purpose at all other than just getting the ones who SHOULD read then the concerns of the people to maybe overlook a genuine conern that appears WHEN we got the appropraite infos.

Tbh I find freaking out now and being negative to begin with without us knowing anything more harmful to any possible ideas from any of the sides than anything else but then again that is just my opinion there.

 

[Yautja_Cetanu]

I quite liked the pnp roleplaying stuff but bloodlines is my favourite thing of all time.

OH MAN I AM SO EXCITED!!!! Paradox is so unbelievably cool I've ended up buying loads of paradox games

 

[theliel]

Its likely because with M20...we can all have what we want? Thank you Phil

Ehh. Have you seen the 'How do you do that?' PDF that essentially says "hey, I know M20 says you can do it your way..but you're wrong. Also too, so are shamanic paradigms unless the user has Spirit 2 because reasons."

But yeah, Exalted is the new hotness and mage flamewars have little to do with Paradox Interactive purchasing WW. Especially given how the process for that went and the personalities involved and the end product.

As for Video Games - Awakening is far more playable as a computer game as is. You could do some awesome stuff with shifting consensus/reality but you'd have to, y'know, create rules for it since Ascension (a game ostensibly about a war for reality where consensus shifts etc.) doesn't actually have any rules for doing so.

We'll see what they do - I guess we won't know the full details until probably Q1 2016 or so, if not for far later.

But this best not kill Deviant: The ???? or Lost 2nd ed.

 

[Ryue]

Ehh. Have you seen the 'How do you do that?' PDF that essentially says "hey, I know M20 says you can do it your way..but you're wrong. Also too, so are shamanic paradigms unless the user has Spirit 2 because reasons."

But yeah, Exalted is the new hotness and mage flamewars have little to do with Paradox Interactive purchasing WW. Especially given how the process for that went and the personalities involved and the end product.

As for Video Games - Awakening is far more playable as a computer game as is. You could do some awesome stuff with shifting consensus/reality but you'd have to, y'know, create rules for it since Ascension (a game ostensibly about a war for reality where consensus shifts etc.) doesn't actually have any rules for doing so.

We'll see what they do - I guess we won't know the full details until probably Q1 2016 or so, if not for far later.

But this best not kill Deviant: The ???? or Lost 2nd ed.

Owod mage does not? I thought you had rules there to .....shift reality but you make boom afterwards
(paradox just seemed more deadly to me in owod than in nwod....way more deadly)

 

[Palp]

As for Video Games - Awakening is far more playable as a computer game as is. You could do some awesome stuff with shifting consensus/reality but you'd have to, y'know, create rules for it since Ascension (a game ostensibly about a war for reality where consensus shifts etc.) doesn't actually have any rules for doing so.

Are you talking of global paradigm shifts? That kind if thing was rather rare in ascension, and in Awakening it takes place on the 4th tier of play with the supernal patrons. A game would not need to be about anything like that. I mean a game would still be damn hard due to the difficulties of making an open magic system on a computer.

 

[theliel]

Owod mage does not? I thought you had rules there to .....shift reality but you make boom afterwards
(paradox just seemed more deadly to me in owod than in nwod....way more deadly)

Nah. Different games, different reasons for paradox. Dox in Awakening is basically the tainted corrupt nature of the material world (1st ed) or intentionally exceeding your capabilities and inviting the horrific madness of the abyss in for personal gain (2nd). Ascension it's for doing things that the current consensus thinks are 'wrong'.

Deadlyness and/or danger depends deeply about which edition of Ascension you are playing. 1st is less damage more 'Paradox spirit shows up and eats you' while Revised is full of the "ow" instead. 2nd is in-between.

Are you talking of global paradigm shifts? That kind if thing was rather rare in ascension, and in Awakening it takes place on the 4th tier of play with the supernal patrons. A game would not need to be about anything like that. I mean a game would still be damn hard due to the difficulties of making an open magic system on a computer.

Global is, yes, quite rare but Ascension has never needed global shifts. M20 codifies what was long implied - consensus is a localized affair that can shift slightly in numerous directions without going full direction in one way or the other. Sadly the only actual rules we have are for Demanses and Horizon Realms or some vague handwavy notes about how it happens. The whole point of developing cults and controlling academia etc. was so that you can shift the local consensus one way or the other, and when you get a big enough shift going you then a local shift then build on that and the entire point of the Technocracy's apparatus was to ensure That Did Not Happen because they were trying to yank the ladder up after they used it.

Now imagine a game where the Bloodlines:Malkavian experience was normal. Each tradition you picked changed how the world moved, felt and each level played even with the same 'base powers'.

 

[Skarn14]

a dream come true ... vampiere is a political game, not an action game!
with all the various plots with magicians, fairies, werewolfs would be a huge political online game

 

[Kareruren]

Ehh. Have you seen the 'How do you do that?' PDF that essentially says "hey, I know M20 says you can do it your way..but you're wrong. Also too, so are shamanic paradigms unless the user has Spirit 2 because reasons."

I had not, I've been spending most of my time memorizing exalted 3 and doing full time work/college. I'll have to eye it soon.

 

[PetriWessman]

I think Paradox's new "White Wolf" is somewhat constrained here, by past history. Right now, if they hurt nWoD they'll instantly turn a huge group of old fans of WoD into active hostiles. While that may not hurt them in the computer game side too much, they can kiss any plans of their own for tabletop rpgs goodbye -- there's no way a newcomer company can survive the boycotts and active sabotaging of everything they do after that. Angry (ex)fans are vicious, and they have long memories... and these are beloved games we're talking about (Mage: the Awakening 2e and Changeling: the Lost 2e are eagerly awaited things).

So yeah, I suspect they'll have to play nice with nWoD, at least for the time being. Maybe, sometime in the future, when/if the new White Wolf has a new WoD tabletop game out and it is considered the superior version, things will be different. At that point, WW will also have gained some amount of trust and goodwill. Right now, though? That's at a zero (for the tabletop folks), with everyone waiting to see where things fall.