Paradox, include CB testing into your QA

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Alblaka

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edit: Note that, after a mod changed the title, there probably should be a PLEASE in there.

A simple open letter:

In the assumption that Paradox doesn't have the intention/budget to fund a sufficiently large QA for Stellaris, and in light of the rather obvious issues/bugs in 1.5, which a proper QA would have supposedly been able to identify easily, I politely request Wiz/whoever_else_is_in_charge to consider setting up a Closed Beta system of some form or nomination (or to extend it if already present), to provide the Dev Team a voluntary and micro-budget QA-replacement by fan-base.

Some elaboration and clarification on above:
  • I'm not saying 'PDX SUCKS MONEY BACK' or anything suchlike.
  • I fully respect design decisions made by the devs, regardless whether I personally disagree on certain nuances.
  • I do not expect a patch to instantly have perfect balance, as that is something that can take months to achieve.
  • I do not expect patches to be flawless and free of bugs, as that is something practically impossible, even for a AAA budget, which Paradox obviously doesn't have.
  • I DO expect any new features, especially those marketed as key aspects of an expansion or otherwise explicitely pointed out in dev diaries, to be working (as advertised).
  • I DO expect to be able to play and enjoy the game without encountering any kind of game-breaking bugs which are created by default gameplay situations (excluding 'breaking the game' moments from edge gameplay cases)
To provide (as an example token amount, you're free to check the bug report forum yourself) some reasons for above assertions regarding bugs:
  • Nerve-stapled pops are excluded from slavery
    The only relevant application for nerve-stapling pops (for the unaware: it's a special genetic trait unlocked by the Genetic Ascension path, which removes a species happyness similar to how Hiveminds work) is to make slaves content, ideally creatting docile lifestock. However, in 1.5, nerve-stapling pops PREVENTS them from being slaves, making the whole thing useless and even detrimental.
    This issue does ALWAYS occur, is EASILY replicated and would have occured on every occasion of testing Nerve-Stapling in it's supposed use case. The fact it was not noticed before 1.5 release implies Nerve-Stapling was never properly tested by Paradox' devs or QA.
    (Note that a fix for this is avaible in the current 1.5.1 hotfix though, hinting that maybe it was found by QA, but only after the release/codefreeze/budget_ran_out.)
  • Embracing a faction applies a PERMANENT happyness modifier
    Embracing a faction is supposed and advertised to allow players to adapt their government ethics to the current playstyle of the nation. It comes with requirements, an Influence cost and a reasonable happyness penality to all other factions (and a happyness bous to the embraced faction).
    However, opposed to the happyness modifier being temporary, as it's implied by both tooltip and the '120 months remaining' modifier label, the 120 months never tick down, making it a permanent malus to the player's empire (and effectively preventing any player from reasonably embracing more then once per game, or lose all faction support).
    Since this occurs EVERY time a faction is embraced, but was not noticed by QA, it's evident that noone ever playtested a game with this feature (but, at best, clicked the button in a paused state and marked it as 'working').
What do these two example cases (amongst, as mentioned, other bugs visible to everyone browsing the Bug forum) prove:
  • Stellaris QA is not properly playtesting the full width of features added in a new patch.
    (Note: this is a generalizred statement which exclusively refers to the 1.5 patch as of now.)
  • This implies the QA team is either incompetent, or understaffed. (This includes the possibility of not having enough time, since that could be 'fixed' by hiring more staff = understaff issue.)
  • In the benevolent/realistic assumption that the QA team is actually giving it's best effort and is competent, this implicates Paradox is not able/willing to hire enough QA staff members to properly provide test coverage for a game of this feature width and depth.
Therefore, in the scope of this Open Letter, I request the community's support to emphasize these affromentioned issues, in order to have Wiz consider implementing some form of Closed Beta program, wherein Paradox would easily be able to recruit dozens, if not hundreds, of willing players to improve the quality of their products prior to public release, by letting the Beta Testers perform thorough playtests.
This could be (supposedly easy, albeit I'll not claim I'm an expert at this) by Steam's closed beta functionalities. The amount of work/budget required to implement these Closed Betas would be a thing, but I would dare to claim it would still be less budget then what is currently spent on QA anyways, and would clearly lead to much higher (at the very least on a quantitive level) results.
One obvious issue is the fact Stellaris' ressources can be easily extracted, which implies that allowing players, even if limited to a hand-selected amount, access to pre-release code could lead to unintended leaks and reveals. But I would argue that, given the amount of teasers and dev diaries, plus a default NDA, would ensure that there is only a minimal flow of unintended information from the beta testers to the public community.
The stability of the closed beta is entirely a non-issue, since the beta testers would likely be willing to deal with the instability in order to improve the end product.

Therefore, I arrive at the conclusion that implementing some form of Closed Beta system would greatly improve the QA-quality (it bothers me that this term is even a thing appropriate to describe this), with an investment from sides of Paradox smaller then any other option which were to include hiring more actual QA staff.


And, hopefully, if this practice would be adopted for one title, and proved it's worth, it could then potentially be migrated to other PDX titles, from which I would personally claim many have similar issues. But that's a topic for another day, in another thread.

PS: Note that I do not claim to be fully aware of Paradox's internal structure, only that, what I can perceive of that structure on the customer-side, appears inadequate, and therefore make a suggestion, based upon my perceived knowledge of the situation. If any PDX members perceive this as a gross missinterpretation of facts, please do respond and correct my missconceptions.
 
Last edited:

wthree

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I second this.

Do you have an actual petition going? Because I would love to sign it.

I've spent most of the last few days playing through a play-through only to find out that it was broken, to move onto the next one and find that was broken too.

I feel like a lot of distrust for Paradox could be avoided if they implemented a closed-beta system before releasing a product, instead of using the first week after release as an open beta. And while I am used to Paradox games being buggy after release, this has probably been the worst so far: Almost each of the major features of the DLC are simply fatally bugged, Biological and Synthetic ascension (Psionic might be as well, havent got round to it) and the faction system.
 

Alblaka

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What makes you think they don't have closed beta testing?

The fact that this many bugs make it through.
Technically this shouldn't even happen if you have any amount of decent QA (something like 2-8 testers, depending on budget and product size).
If they have a true Closed Beta (which, for some reason, has participiants this stealthy, that I've nowhere ever heard anything about them), which includes at least a 2-digit sum of non-employed players, and they STILL have these issues pass, that would make everything SO much worse... I can only hope that they indeed are not doing Stellaris CB testing yet.
 

Tha Pink Guy

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Honestly I would be more willing for them to release Beta builds for testing. The Paradox fanbase is dedicated enough and would be more than helpful. They just seem to want to keep the excitement for a release while rushing out content and fixing it later. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

That said i've experienced no bugs apart from broken achievements which is the whole reason I play so much more than I would otherwise.
 

wthree

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Honestly I would be more willing for them to release Beta builds for testing. The Paradox fanbase is dedicated enough and would be more than helpful. They just seem to want to keep the excitement for a release while rushing out content and fixing it later. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

That said i've experienced no bugs apart from broken achievements which is the whole reason I play so much more than I would otherwise.

Have you tried the biological or synthetic ascension pathways?
 

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Have you tried the biological or synthetic ascension pathways?
No, however now that I think of it the machine pathway is buggy too. Synths count as a different species as your actual species and now you CAN'T DISMANTLE ROBOTS.
 

wthree

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No, however now that I think of it the machine pathway is buggy too. Synths count as a different species as your actual species and now you CAN'T DISMANTLE ROBOTS.

Yeah, and you can't change the rights of either your primary pops or the synths. It's disappointing, because I was really getting into my synth game, but I cant really go back to it now.
 

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Just as a heads up, there's a forum rule against "straw polls" / petitions like this. Just formulate this as an open letter or something to avoid a lock.

Myself, I wouldn't be opposed to closed betas. I mean I haven't actually encountered (m)any of the main bugs people have been complaining about as yet (other than the AI not understanding Unbidden anchors) so my play through has been enjoyable and stable.

That's kind of the point though, I suppose. These games are behemothic QA nightmares, if only because of the random box of outcomes any given player can spit out. Generally more QA is never a bad thing though, and keys for player beta access could even be used for community competition awards and stuff.
 

Tha Pink Guy

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Yeah, and you can't change the rights of either your primary pops or the synths. It's disappointing, because I was really getting into my synth game, but I cant really go back to it now.
There is a bug with "Sanctuary" system, each section of debris counts as a planet so you can have like 8 habitats and 4 ringworld sections in one system.
 

Alblaka

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Just as a heads up, there's a forum rule against "straw polls" / petitions like this. Just formulate this as an open letter or something to avoid a lock.

Welp, cant change the thread title anymore.
But I suppose if it's locked I can recreate it with a different wording anyways.
 

NicoH

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There is a bug with "Sanctuary" system, each section of debris counts as a planet so you can have like 8 habitats and 4 ringworld sections in one system.

Oh yes, I conquered the sanctuary system yesterday and my first thought was: "Hey? Can I build habitats here? Yes, I can!"
I think a closed beta would be good...
 

Mendeth

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To be honest I think threads like this are one of the best justifications for not having such public beta tests. Accusing PDX QA of incompetency is both ridiculous and unacceptable, particularly as you likely have limited or no knowledge of the QA structure. How do you know - for certain - that the bugs you mention weren't found by QA before release? How do you know - for certain - that there is no limited closed beta process? Any such participants would, I imagine, be subject to an NDA; so if it does exist there's a very good reason you haven't heard of it. Participants would be expected to provide measured and constructive feedback, rather than accusing the devs and QA of incompetency.
 

Vaar

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Well written post. I strongly support this idea. While I am confident that Stellaris will be great eventually, I shouldn't have to pay full price and waste countless hours of my time resulting in my save file being broken by some bug that shouldn't have made it into release. I shouldn't have content that I've paid for gated by bugs because of incompatibilities. This is why I don't buy info early access. When I buy a game, I want a bug free, enjoyable experience. I did not get that with Utopia.
 

Slynx

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i want to subscribe to this descussion, cuz it's actually interesting topic. but i don't wanna add blank comment. so i'll add this:

*sector's ai treats processed pops and normal and try to put them on energy\minerals\unity\science.
*building that are not working will not let foodstock produce food. yet deactivated building allow it.
*genocidal penalty to hiveminds before they actually kill anyone (penalty stay even if you gift\release\gene mod a planet)

it's also could be easily be found by QA
 

Alblaka

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Accusing PDX QA of incompetency is both ridiculous and unacceptable
I have not accused QA members of being incompetent, only that, evidently, QA is under-performing and, in the assumption they are competent (which is the only logical assumption, because why would PDX keep incompetent employees?), simply understaffed for the task at hand.
Please re-read the OP proper before accusing me of insulting people (for no reason, at that).

How do you know - for certain - that the bugs you mention weren't found by QA before release?
Are you implying that easily noticeable bugs have been intentionally left in the release, after being located by QA in a timely fashion?
May I ask you what kind of developement strategy it would be to intentionally create buggy products?

I'm going on a leg here and claim that's not how PDX is developing.

How do you know - for certain - that there is no limited closed beta process?

Already answered this in the thread prior.
Key arguments are that Closed Betas, even with strict NDA, will at the very least be heard of in some form or reference, even if the content is not leaked. Aka, if there would be a CB of relevant size, people activively in the forum WOULD have noticed by now.
Secondary argument is the same as for QA: If these kinds of issue slips by, QA+CB are not up to the task and need more budget/personal.

To be honest I think threads like this are one of the best justifications for not having such public beta tests.

A fair oppinion, and given the usual quality of 'OMG XYZ SUCKS PETITION MONEY BACK OR FIX OR FREE DLC' 'petitions' in the gaming community, I can accept that sentiment, albeit I would prefer not to be associated with that level.
 

Jerev

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To be fair the amount of new features and redone old features was staggering in this patch and the patches 1.1-1.4 were working quite good on release. If there would be a closed beta in the future: sign me up. I think it would help new fans to get into befriending a little easier when a patch is working just fine on release day.
 

tradetem

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Yes, in general I agree, PDox could really do with more QA, especially since, as OP has shown, very basic features of the new DLC were obviously untested or tested but ignored/not enough time. Also I cannot forgive breaking steam achievements. I spent 16 hours on release day and despite a very bad opening with multiple pirate fleets, eventually I singlehandedly won my first Prethoryn crisis, conquered half the galaxy, then a treacherous FE swooped in to bask in my glory [I forgot to destroy one last prethoryn fleet and the FE awakened], vassalized me and I almost won my bid for freedom when rebelling against them. And not one achievement unlocked!!! Yes I'm salty as frack!
 

Mendeth

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I have not accused QA members of being incompetent, only that, evidently, QA is under-performing and, in the assumption they are competent (which is the only logical assumption, because why would PDX keep incompetent employees?), simply understaffed for the task at hand.
Please re-read the OP proper before accusing me of insulting people (for no reason, at that).


I'm sorry but you have accused them of incompetency, you even used the word yourself. You even accused them of deliberately not establishing a sufficient QA system.

With reference: your original post (emphases my own):


In the assumption that Paradox doesn't have the intention/budget to fund a proper QA

You accuse Paradox of deliberately not wanting to set up a 'proper' QA


    • Stellaris QA is not properly playtesting the full width of features added in a new patch.
      (Note: this is a generalizred statement which exclusively refers to the 1.5 patch as of now.)

You accuse them of not doing their job fully.

    • This implies the QA team is either incompetent, or understaffed.
    • In the benevolent/realistic assumption that the QA team is actually giving it's best effort and is competent, this implicates Paradox is not able/willing to hire enough QA staff members to properly provide test coverage for a game of this feature width and depth.

You accuse them of being incompetent and having the desire to do QA.

Are you implying that easily noticeable bugs have been intentionally left in the release, after being located by QA in a timely fashion?
May I ask you what kind of developement strategy it would be to intentionally create buggy products?

I'm going on a leg here and claim that's not how PDX is developing.

I've seen it mentioned a number of times on PDX forums, and others, that a number - not necessarily all - of bugs are found before release but cannot be fixed for a number of reasons. You pointed out yourself one issue that has seeminly been fixed in the beta patch. Perhaps the priority was on other issues; ones which prevent the game from actually being played. I can't say as I don't know. But you can't know for certain which bugs PDX were or weren't aware of prior to release.

Already answered this in the thread prior.
Key arguments are that Closed Betas, even with strict NDA, will at the very least be heard of in some form or reference, even if the content is not leaked. Aka, if there would be a CB of relevant size, people activively in the forum WOULD have noticed by now.
Secondary argument is the same as for QA: If these kinds of issue slips by, QA+CB are not up to the task and need more budget/personal.

I've read evidence with respect to other titles - EU for instance - that there might be a small number of players who have been chosen to do some closed beta testing of patches. Again I don't know for certain, and might be completely wrong on this. As for your secondary argument, it comes back to my point above of dev priorities. Just because bugs are known don't mean they are necessarily easy to fix or take priority over what are deemed more urgent issues.
 
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