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Mordoch

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Apr 12, 2001
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Re: Re: Re: Paradox has really dropped the ball

Originally posted by Belissarius
First off Strategy first DIDNOT force the release of the game before it was ready that is a rumour that while not started by paradox has been used by paradox to deflect the blame. The fact remains that HOI was released unfinished so paradox could cheat us. They took our money for an unfinished game and didnt tell us Before we purchased it. The fact that they are patching the game DOESNT change the fact that they should never have released the game BEFORE it was finished.
News flash, no-one forced you to buy the game, and many games are released in far worse states than HOI. Some of the issues you mention are even areas of personal opinion for which it could be argue your solution is a bad idea. Certainly I would say that by the 1.02 patch the game is better than a substancial number of those out there. Paradox has not "used the rumor" in any shape or form. Basicly I suggest you don't buy a computergame unless it is at least a year old given the expectations you seem to place on them.
 

Mordoch

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Paradox has really dropped the ball

Originally posted by Belissarius
There is no plan to impliment certain features that are described on the box and manual like trade agreements and little things like guarenteeing independance and many other aspects. That fact that paradox is willing to fix other aspects of the game DOESNT change the fact that they have some false advertising on the box and the manual.
None of the things you mentioned were on the box. A manual is not designed to advertise the game, and it is not that uncommon for feature mentioned in the manual not to make the game. The primary reason for the discrepancies WAS the publisher in this instance since the manual had to be finalized months before the game actually hit the shelves. Discrepancies were often the result of the manual writter making assumptions that were slightly innacurate rather than missing features. Since the manual was not something you could read until you bought the game, I fail to see the validity of a claim of false advertising.
 

Belissarius

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Originally posted by Dan Cook
Yet the 1.01 patch was immediatly released.

Yet more Proof that the Game WASNT ready to be released!!! How the bloody hell can you justify releasing a game that has so many errors/bugs in it that they have a patch before the game is released. That screams to me that they knew damn well that the game was unfinished so they put together a stop gap but still had an unplayable game even with the 1.01 patch.

HOI is no where near the quality of EU. Perhaps paradox shouldnt have relaesed the game before all the fixes in 1.01, 1.02 and 1.03 where finished. Loyalty shouldnt be blind. I was a huge supporter of paradox in the past but they have dropped the ball with this product. I'm afraid that paradox will get into the habit of releasing all there games unfinished and then fix them, but what if a game doesnt do well in sales will they drop it? I'm sure they would say no but I'm sure 2 years ago they would say they would never release a game before it was finished.
 

Belissarius

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Paradox has really dropped the ball

Originally posted by Mordoch
News flash, no-one forced you to buy the game, and many games are released in far worse states than HOI. Some of the issues you mention are even areas of personal opinion for which it could be argue your solution is a bad idea. Certainly I would say that by the 1.02 patch the game is better than a substancial number of those out there. Paradox has not "used the rumor" in any shape or form. Basicly I suggest you don't buy a computergame unless it is at least a year old given the expectations you seem to place on them.

This idea that well other produce crap so its ok for paradox to do so is pathetic. The game Released out of the BOX is unfinished and unplayable!! No game should EVER be Released in an unplayable condition. To use the fact that other companies have done so and will do so in the future is no excuse for paradox to do so. That is subjective morality, " other people do so so why cant I?" The fact that you use this argument only proves my point that paradox is becoming more like the mainstream companies in terms of quality. No one would ever need to make that argument for the EU games yet here it is for HOI. Doesnt that tell you something about HOI? IT WAS RELEASED FAR FROM FINISHED AND THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT.

I see so because no one force me to buy the game i have no right to hold the company who made the product to tast when there product was unfinished? If I bought a book that wasnt finshed ie paragraphs missing, words missing or sentances that make no sense I'd be pissed and angry and the fact that I could down load an errata that "fixed" the majority of proplems wouldn't deflect my anger. the book should have been finished BEFORE it was released. I'm sorry if my standards of quality are higher than yours but I demand that what I buy be finished before it is released. I'm not talking about bugs either you cant tell me that HOI has just your run of the mill bugs. It was unfinished and thats why it had so many featue that were not implimented or working upon release.
 
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Mordoch

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Originally posted by Belissarius

HOI is no where near the quality of EU.
Actually from what I've heard it was. EU1 with the 1.00 patch was quite buggy and had quite a few different issues, i.e. no badboy. The NA version already had quite a few patch applied. Your arguments are simply wrong. Ok, you're unhappy with the condition it was released in originally ok, move on already! It sounds like you should never buy another computer game in your life because if any of them are not perfect you suddenly become increadibly unhappy and waste months complaining about it on message boards. Just try to keep you complaints factually acccurate if you don't have anything better to do with your time.
 

unmerged(13977)

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Dropped Ball

I too am dissapointed about the state of things. However, I now realize that this is actually a clever strategy. All the Mods and Beta testers would be bored stiff if the game came out in chrome. I think that all games will be released this way in the future. After all, it is fun, if you have the time, to do Bolts and such.

If not, just monitor the forums and wait to buy the game untill it is completed!!

P.S. Mien Kampf was published incomplete and nobody complained. The Author left out the part where he gets a can of soviet whoop ass opened on him!!!

LOL
 
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Having played EU1 v1.0 (the German version), perhaps I can add my two cents.

Firstly, remember that HoI is far more complex than EU1 (or even EU2), so more is bound to go wrong. With that said, EU v1.0 was in a "better" state than HoI v1.0. It was more playable. The same bugs were around and the AI sucked too. In fact I would say the AI was even worse than HoI, if that's possible. The computer would refuse to do anything, quite literally. This resulted in players being able to take over the world without a hitch. Thus BadBoy was born.

One must also remember that EU's less complexity and the communities limited knowledge on the era also meant that it didn't have to be so historically correct. Alot of the compliants here are about the representation of history, and quite rightly so.

I understand why Belissarius is pissed. I understand entirely. I'm not so narked maybe because I am willing to accept more problems on board. Not that I have a choice. Is that acceptable? Well, no. Games should be 90-5% done when they come out of the box (the 5-10% being bugs relating to specific computer systems). But that's not going to happen. Money makes the world go round and that's a fact. The publishers push for early releases knowing that the internet now allows them to keep their developers pumping out patches. I'm not saying you have to like it, cos I don't, but its a fact of life. Sorry.
 

Vynd

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When it comes to this whole blaming SF thing, I think it is always worth pointing out that Paradox must have at some point signed some contracts with SF, promising such and such product in such and such timeframe. SF did not kidnap anyone's families and threatened to send them back in pieces if Paradox didn't give them a WWII grand strategy game. I am sure that they paid Paradox to make the game, and considering how long it takes to produce a game, they probably paid quite a bit in advance of the completion of the project, because otherwise Paradox couldn't pay everyone's salaries.

SF has salaries to pay as well, ya know? Having given Paradox some money and planned on having a product by a certain date, they genuinely need to get that product out more or less on time. Otherwise where do they get the money to pay the bills, and fund the next new game? A publisher with deep pockets can afford to take forever putting a game out, but a smaller company like SF doesn't have a lot of extra cash lying around, so they need to recoup their investment on schedule or the company suffers.

Paradox and SF willingly and knowingly entered into an agreement to make this game. Paradox promised to give them a finished game, but at some point they must have realized they weren't going to make it on time. Is that SFs fault? No. It is Paradox's fault, for failing to live up to their agreement.

Of course Paradox probably went to SF and asked for more time, and after one or more of these requests SF must have told them no, and insisted the game be prepared for release as is. And that *is* SFs fault. But they never would have been in that position if Paradox had done their job right. So it seems to me that they share the blame for HoI's flaws.
 

Mordoch

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Originally posted by Vynd
. I am sure that they paid Paradox to make the game, and considering how long it takes to produce a game, they probably paid quite a bit in advance of the completion of the project, because otherwise Paradox couldn't pay everyone's salaries.
This is incorrect, Paradox paid the price of developing the game entirely out of their own company's pockets. They simply agreed that SF would distributed the game. There may have been a date for which they promised that game would be ready by, but the only costs for SF involving the game would be distribution and development. Paradox received no advance from SF as they made the game. Here is a quote from Frederick from earlier in this thread on the subject.

FYI, each game has a development budget which is in relation to the estimated sales of the game. Our games are incredibly complex to make with the resources we can devote to them. We have to finance the development all the way until delivery and then the publishers usally pay us royalties depending on the sales volume. One way to grow the audience is to support the games with updates post release, something most studios get paid for but we do not.
 

State Machine

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Originally posted by Trip
Hasn't this issue been argued into the ground already...
Yeah, but that was earlier, this is now. :D

But still, unless people start refusing to buy games until they get released in a solid state, or alternately are willing to invest some big bucks in your favorite game developers, games will continue to be released "early" (to be kind...).

Meanwhile, Paradox has a steller history of continuing to fix and improve their games. EU2 1.06 will be out sometime and should be a nice improvement for a great game. HoI is only up to 1.03, so it still has some rough edges. :D
 

unmerged(2377)

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Originally posted by Belissarius
Yet more Proof that the Game WASNT ready to be released!!! How the bloody hell can you justify releasing a game that has so many errors/bugs in it that they have a patch before the game is released. That screams to me that they knew damn well that the game was unfinished so they put together a stop gap but still had an unplayable game even with the 1.01 patch.

The Russians got HoI first. Their feedback plus beta feedback showed them they needed a patch.