Paradox detractor behavior, can someone explain it to me?

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CyaN

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that's good to hear. i'm glad there's free content coming in a free update. i stand by my points though; i don't believe paradox would be doing a free update (other than bug fixes), but for negative feedback. if everyone said the game was fine and dandy, they'd have no incentive to add free content.

They always do major updates after releasing. It's release, hotfixes, then a major update, a second major update, and first expansion.

The perceived shortcomings of the game that were debated on the forum (not in negativity-charged threads about how "Paradox robbed me", but in actual debate threads) let them see, or confirm, the things that the community cared more about. But a narrative where unconstructive whining is the only thing that made PDS improve the game, because they wouldn't have done anything if some people hadn't expressed how "Stellaris is a war crime", is just flat-out wrong.
 
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Illanair

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paradox haven't been a "small" studio for a while now.
companies will release new content for games so long as it's reasonably profitable. i also don't consider paradox to be a small developer anymore. they're well known throughout the PC gaming world and their games are some of the best selling games on steam.

You can count the number of people working on Stellaris with a single hand, not counting their QA department who do QA on all titles.

You can think of them however you want, but the actual teams that work on a specific game are quite small.
 
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Surimi

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But guys, I think we're all missing the big picture here.

There isn't any espionage, and as we all know strategy games are literally worthless unless they have espionage. This has been shown to be objective fact by numerous scientific studies, but also by basic observational fact. As we all know, every single EU4 player picks espionage ideas every time. I mean, Paradox keep trying to nerf it but people still keep picking it because it's espionage, and espionage is just that important.

To play devils advocate for detractors (whether you were serious or not), I think they were typically expecting more and got bored of what is here fairly quickly.

I think it's perfectly possible to express the sentiment that you wanted more. Heck, I have no issues saying that I hoped for more myself. There are countless things I don't like or think are currently undeveloped about Stellaris. I haven't made a post on them or expressed them, sure, but that's mostly because I don't want to get lost or confused within the weird tirade of nonsensical spam. In a way that's what's really annoying here.. the nonsensical spam silences any possibility of real, meaningful debate.

What gets incredibly tiresome, I think, are all these insanely hyperbolic threads, 90% of which don't actually make a coherent point but just express a general sense of outrage or personal emotional disengagement, or which hinge on some completely meaningless comparison either to another game (generally CK2 or EU4) or occasionally just to some imaginary point of reference we're all supposed to grasp but which is never actually explained. Often, these comparisons display a very poor or incomprehensible understanding of game mechanics, so you'll have people complaining that there is nothing to do in Stellaris but conquer things, but then making that a negative comparison to EU4 (what do you do in EU4 except conquer things?), or you'll have people complaining about the lack of developed trade or espionage systems but not being able to name another strategy game where these things actually contribute.

And there comes a point where it just feels like grasping, like someone is just having an emotional feeling of disappointment that they bought a game expecting it to descend from heaven and lead them to the promised land, and when it didn't instead of sitting down to examine their own expectations and form a balanced opinion they just seized on whatever reason or impulse first popped into the head. And that's fine, everyone has a right to their opinion, but I think when you're expressing an opinion in public there is a certain duty to make it intelligible to other people, and that's what the "detractors" keep failing at.
 
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EmperorZelos

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The thing they miss is one crucial concept within their brain, they are the stereotypical "american" so to speak. They lack
TRUST

This is a foreignt concept to them
 
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Mr Drone

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i disagree with them being staples of the genre. everyone is entitled to their opinion. i knew about them not being present and i bought the game anyway. i enjoyed the game and i don't regret buying it. that's not the point i'm trying to make.

Oh, I absolutely agree that those aren't staples of the genre. I was completely baffled people started bringing up this crap at release. Trading and espionage are totally useless features in the vast majority of 4X games. And EU4's "trade" is basically a trade-themed mini-game while Vicky 2's trade is a game in and of itself.

The pre-FTL species mechanic is very innovative, fun and IMHO in itself more than compensates for the "absence" of trading and espionage.
 

Person012345

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that's good to hear. i'm glad there's free content coming in a free update. i stand by my points though; i don't believe paradox would be doing a free update (other than bug fixes), but for negative feedback. if everyone said the game was fine and dandy, they'd have no incentive to add free content.
Then you don't know what you're talking about. Did you just arrive to paradox games this week? They add free stuff in the updates that go alongside the DLCs. They change and tweak mechanics in them. They do all sorts of stuff. Right now we're just in the bugfixing/adding content they couldn't get to at release stage, and yes, this is obviously mostly based on feedback, what people want to see.
 
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tinculin

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The reality is that paradox has sold 10's of thousands of copies and at most a few hundred angry people complain on the forums which represent less than 1% of the Stellaris gaming population.

Raging children don't represent the gaming community, though they are the most petulant.
 
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Woozywyvern

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that's good to hear. i'm glad there's free content coming in a free update. i stand by my points though; i don't believe paradox would be doing a free update (other than bug fixes), but for negative feedback. if everyone said the game was fine and dandy, they'd have no incentive to add free content.

Constructive negative feedback is one thing, but if the doom posts are too prevalant then Paradox won't see any value in improving the existing game and developing further expansions. Personally I believe the game is very good and very enjoyable now, but could do with some improvements. I hope that Paradox invest the time and money in making these. If not I still have a good game and I'm happy, but I would love for it to be a great game.
 

Ornlu Wolfjarl

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I bought CK2 at release, and I feel like it was way more complex and required you to think a lot more about your actions that what stellaris is doing, but I may be wrong, it's a long time ago and the game changed a lot

I agree with some of your points in your other post, but yes, their recent games have a history of being a lot more "basic" on release and riddled with bugs. I bought CK2 a year after it was released, so I wouldn't know, but when it came to EU4 that game was a hell more basic than Stellaris. In some aspects it still is. Victoria II was another game I bought on release. While it was by no means "basic" it had more bugs than a Turkish hostel bed. A lot of them were still around until Wiz decided to fix them a few months ago.

I don't like how Paradox approaches DLC now, I'd rather they did a few huge expansions instead, maybe once a year. But they are still a lot better than most other game companies out there. And if I'm not mistaken 1.1.0 and 1.2.0 won't be DLC at all. They will be free updates.

We just need to be a bit patient for now. They said by the end of the month they plan on upgrading to 1.1.0. So in 10 days we can consider that most bugs and optimization problems will disappear, and some more content added in for free. For one they wanted to improve how border access works, so you science ships can go on to explore the galaxy. I heard they wanted to improve trade as well.

By the way, while on the topic of diplomacy, I find that I can trade almost any treaty with anyone. Especially migration access can be very powerful. The only people I can't trade with are fallen empires and the hardcore isolationists/exterminators/conquerors.
 

Person012345

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But guys, I think we're all missing the big picture here.

There isn't any espionage, and as we all know strategy games are literally worthless unless they have espionage. This has been shown to be objective fact by numerous scientific studies, but also by basic observational fact. As we all know, every single EU4 player picks espionage ideas every time. I mean, Paradox keep trying to nerf it but people still keep picking it because it's espionage, and espionage is just that important.



I think it's perfectly possible to express the sentiment that you wanted more. Heck, I have no issues saying that I hoped for more myself. There are countless things I don't like or think are currently undeveloped about Stellaris. I haven't made a post on them or expressed them, sure, but that's mostly because I don't want to get lost or confused within the weird tirade of nonsensical spam. In a way that's what's really annoying here.. the nonsensical spam silences any possibility of real, meaningful debate.

What gets incredibly tiresome, I think, are all these insanely hyperbolic threads, 90% of which don't actually make a coherent point but just express a general sense of outrage or personal emotional disengagement, or which hinge on some completely meaningless comparison either to another game (generally CK2 or EU4) or occasionally just to some imaginary point of reference we're all supposed to grasp but which is never actually explained. Often, these comparisons display a very poor or incomprehensible understanding of game mechanics, so you'll have people complaining that there is nothing to do in Stellaris but conquer things, but then making that a negative comparison to EU4 (what do you do in EU4 except conquer things?), or you'll have people complaining about the lack of developed trade or espionage systems but not being able to name another strategy game where these things actually contribute.

And there comes a point where it just feels like grasping, like someone is just having an emotional feeling of disappointment that they bought a game expecting it to descend from heaven and lead them to the promised land, and when it didn't instead of sitting down to examine their own expectations and form a balanced opinion they just seized on whatever reason or impulse first popped into the head. And that's fine, everyone has a right to their opinion, but I think when you're expressing an opinion in public there is a certain duty to make it intelligible to other people, and that's what the "detractors" keep failing at.
I agree. I think the game has lots of issues and it would be nice (and is nice when people are rational in a thread) to be able to properly discuss them. What makes me seem like some sort of fanboy to some people is that people just go WAY over the top in hating the game for some minor thing that they don't like and then they make comparisons to CKII and EUIV after years of development (yes I know some people explicitly compare it to release of those games and I don't really have a problem with that though I don't think it's a particularly apt comparison) and declare the game nearly unplayable because of some small UI inconvenience. So I find myself having to defend parts of the game that aren't brilliant, simply because they aren't as terrible as people are hyperbolically making them out to be.

What it comes down to for me is that this is by far the most engrossing and enjoyable Space-based 4x game I have played in a long time aside from aurora (which has it's own issues, though it is free, but also has been in development for... well over a decade now I think?) and that is where I make my comparison. I can acknowledge the bugs and things that can be improved, but I think some people expected way more in terms of content and gameplay and 1. I think it's largely unreasonable and 2. it was never advertised as having that. It's a paradox game, and it is a VERY solid and enjoyable base upon which to build, even in it's current iteration (ESPECIALLY when the bugs are fixed) it is among the most enjoyable 4x games in existence and will probably be one of my most played games on steam (I already have 120 hours in it).
 
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Mourn

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Constructive negative feedback is one thing, but if the doom posts are too prevalant then Paradox won't see any value in improving the existing game and developing further expansions. Personally I believe the game is very good and very enjoyable now, but could do with some improvements. I hope that Paradox invest the time and money in making these. If not I still have a good game and I'm happy, but I would love for it to be a great game.

Stellaris is the most successful of their titles yet, I doubt they are going to abandon it because of some whiners on their forum, many of who are either brand new accounts or clearly don't understand fundamental design goals of the game.

The thing they miss is one crucial concept within their brain, they are the stereotypical "american" so to speak. They lack
TRUST

This is a foreignt concept to them

As this discussion started at 4 Freedoms in the morning, America Time, I don't think you can blame us for this one. We were all asleep in our beds stuffed with eagle feathers and snuggled up with our fully loaded assault rifles to be posting. The sun rises over the GREATEST COUNTRY ON EARTH (TM) now so we are here to explain ourselves loudly and slowly to you European Communists.

d378f0b2ae109f159d2ce8e274c73b09.jpg
 
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Akka le Vil

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Try to keep in mind, that CK2 had a CK1 at some point, and also stuff from the other "real world historical kind of games"-franchises like EU, Victoria and even HoI that they could draw upon. Stellaris is in large parts brand-new. Give them some leniency for the great game that they already delivered. It will only get better.
You'll have to explain me why they could draw in from EU, Victoria, HoI and CK1 for CK2, but somehow it's impossible/off-limit for Stellaris.

I guess because it happens in space, suddendly mechanisms becomes arbitrarily different and as such can't be applied (ignoring, of course, that war goals are just an ultra-simplified and dumbed down version of EU warscore system, which has absolutely nothing specific to a space game, but well).
 

Dani500

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turns out all other games just release so perfectly they cant handle a launch of a title with bugs! i mean its fairly obvious paradox are in it only for the money with their titles being squeezed dry with all their optional dlc and skins etc they may pretend they want to "support the game" but unlike other companies they are there purely for the cash dollar.
Of course, you do your work for free :D
 

Aries666

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I know that Paradox games have never been the greatest at launch, but I don't see this as a bad thing. I understand what they gain from that as a developer, why they couldn't wait 1 or 2 months to bring us a more polished version of the game (bills need paid or there wont be a game). While an release like this isn't optimal, it doesn't feel like what a monetary focused game maker would do.
This is a pretty big assumption, that Pdx are in such dire financial straights that they simply must release the game to pay the bills, any evidence to back that up?
 

blallo

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You'll have to explain me why they could draw in from EU, Victoria, HoI and CK1 for CK2, but somehow it's impossible/off-limit for Stellaris.

I guess because it happens in space, suddendly mechanisms becomes arbitrarily different and as such can't be applied (ignoring, of course, that war goals are just an ultra-simplified and dumbed down version of EU warscore system, which has absolutely nothing specific to a space game, but well).
what you could possibly draw from those?

eu4 is political simulation.
ck2 is a vassals simulation.
hoi is "total war simulation"
and they said that they wouldn't remake 90% of victoria 2 systems as they done them in victoria 2.

yes they could have thrown in the best system from each of this game in to stellaris, but then we wouldn't have a game focused on exploration and expansion.

This is a pretty big assumption, that Pdx are in such dire financial straights that they simply must release the game to pay the bills, any evidence to back that up?

no, they said that the previous year went well, and that they used the money to keep hoi and stellaris in development for a longer time,
 
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Amightypie

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Seriously ? You're going to claim that war goals as they are in the game right now are fine ?

...

Yeah sure, whatever, no wonder we get threads like the one this one is attempting to mock then.
Well technically they exist in that goal is to conquer x and I like the concept of not being able to change them in my saying they don't need work however
 
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