Paradox Celebrates International Women’s Day With DLC

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Spartanlemur

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I'm sure there were plenty of medieval courts who would have found it just as scandalous if not more so to appoint a female drillmaster to begin with. ;)

Yeah I can't really imagine a female drillmaster :confused:

(Unless they're pretending to be a man)

But I mean for stewardship and administration positions it's quite plausible if they were exceptional and of noble blood. But they would then of course be dressed in female clothing of the period.
 

LordTempest

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Yeah I can't really imagine a female drillmaster :confused:

(Unless they're pretending to be a man)

But I mean for stewardship and administration positions it's quite plausible if they were exceptional and of noble blood. But they would then of course be dressed in female clothing of the period.

Nah, I mean these are people who have been made advisors in spite of their audacity and eccentricities due to their talents. There are plenty of examples of people throughout history who were appointed advisors by sovereigns in spite of the fact they didn't conform to the idea of what court society would have deemed to be socially acceptable.

The drillmaster is probably my favourite of the new portraits BTW, probably because she kinda looks like Sarah Connolly. :)
 

Orinsul

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During the EUIV period a lot of them likely did.

During most of the EUIV period, most of the things we now consider feminine in clothing and fashion, were seen as masculine. All the bright and all the pastel colours, silk and lace, even most the hairstyles, while dull clothes, and dark and dull colours, were seen as feminine. So really looking feminine v looking masculine doesn't work outside of the society and times you define it by.
Especially early in the era, as medieval nobles mens clothes would entirely be seen as flamboyant and effeminate today, but by the end of the period, just look at the last french kings.

Anyway, isn't the point of the portraits that they match the current portraits just genderbent? It's about being recognisable, so you instantly know what the class is.
For men it was never about being accurate either, but distinct and historical enough to add flavour, this still does all that while not being confusing the colour scheme that makes spotting who does what easy.
 

Spartanlemur

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Nah, I mean these are people who have been made advisors in spite of their audacity and eccentricities due to their talents. There are plenty of examples of people throughout history who were appointed advisors by sovereigns in spite of the fact they didn't conform to the idea of what court society would have deemed to be socially acceptable.

The drillmaster is probably my favourite of the new portraits BTW, probably because she kinda looks like Sarah Connolly. :)

Out of interest, what examples are there? I'm genuinely interested, and not just asking that rhetorically.

I agree that the drillmaster is a great portrait, but in my wildest dreams I cannot imagine a female drillmaster like that in Renaissance Europe. It's just pure fantasy (which is totally fine, but it goes alongside Sunset Invasion in that respect).

During most of the EUIV period, most of the things we now consider feminine in clothing and fashion, were seen as masculine. All the bright and all the pastel colours, silk and lace, even most the hairstyles, while dull clothes, and dark and dull colours, were seen as feminine. So really looking feminine v looking masculine doesn't work outside of the society and times you define it by.
Especially early in the era, as medieval nobles mens clothes would entirely be seen as flamboyant and effeminate today, but by the end of the period, just look at the last french kings.

Anyway, isn't the point of the portraits that they match the current portraits just genderbent? It's about being recognisable, so you instantly know what the class is.
For men it was never about being accurate either, but distinct and historical enough to add flavour, this still does all that while not being confusing the colour scheme that makes spotting who does what easy.

You're correct that some feminine things were seen as masculine, but this doesn't mean that women wore men's clothes. Look at Queen Elizabeth or Isabella; Queen Mary or Caterina Sforza. All of them at least wore female clothing (even if their makeup and hair were different from female standards today). Of course, men's military clothing was never feminine at all.

And while I get that the portraits match up to make gameplay easier, they significantly sacrifice historical plausibility. I'd be interested to see if you could find me a portrait of a woman who did not wear female clothing from the time period.
 

Orinsul

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I'd be interested to see if you could find me a portrait of a woman who did not wear female clothing from the time period.

Peasant work clothing for the most part, didn't really vary that much of most of the period. But peasants only got painted when they looked romantic, i.e. church/wedding/home clothes which were fancier so different.
Also, Indians. Especially the equatorial tribes who were just naked all day, they had a unisex look. Also the super cold places, Eskimos for example all dress the same. It's too cold for anything else.
 

Wizzington

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Any news for the fix for the Women in History DLC not being available by default (Apart from the Songs of yuletide workaround?)

Should be addressed in hotfix that is likely coming out today.
 

Spartanlemur

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Peasant work clothing for the most part, didn't really vary that much of most of the period. But peasants only got painted when they looked romantic, i.e. church/wedding/home clothes which were fancier so different.
Also, Indians. Especially the equatorial tribes who were just naked all day, they had a unisex look. Also the super cold places, Eskimos for example all dress the same. It's too cold for anything else.

Fair enough with Indians, and also peasants. I suppose portraits for the Indian subcontinent are more historically appropriate then, but I rarely play Indian countries, and almost all of the ones I have seen so far seem to be showing distinctly unfeminine clothing. There are a couple that I quite like, but most just don't fit.

I mean don't get me wrong, I *do* like some of the ahistorical portraits, but I think they are a bit too ahistorical for EUIV. Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI has some great custom portraits for female characters which I regularly use; here are a few examples:

Created-Female-02.jpg Created-Female-53.jpg Created-Female-62.jpg Created-Female-04.jpg Created-Female-03.jpg Created-Female-43.jpg Created-Female-46.jpg Created-Female-60.jpg

So as you can see, the portraits aren't too different in style from the ones of the women in history DLC. The problem, however, is that the game is Romance of the Three Kingdoms, and makes a point of not being historical. I suppose this isn't necessarily criticism though, as not everyone who plays EU4 is looking for a historical experience. However if we're going semi-fantasy, we may as well make all the characters look physically stunning (and I mean both male and female), like those above (male characters in that game are pretty good looking as well).

I suppose if I'm trying to make a point here, it's that I won't be using the DLC (though I don't find the idea behind it objectionable) because the advisor portraits neither wear historically accurate clothing (so don't work with historical games) nor do their subjects look beautiful (or at least clearly male/female, which would be necessary for a fantasy scenario; of course this would also involve the men looking a bit more handsome as well). So my criticism would be straddling the line here and not doing either of these things. I think it's too easy to support or object to the idea of the DLC without actually scrutinising its content, which is what I think we should be doing. I'd like to see Paradox do DLC like this for future games, but I would perhaps be looking for a more clear direction (fantasy or realism, rather than a strange position in the middle).
 
Last edited:

Orinsul

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Hey hey, mod those in for the portraits you get for female advisors in far eastern countries! They're even all square and everything.

Also, I meant indian in america.
Indians in India got beautiful clothes, tots gorg. Also, half of its ruled by moslems who were trying their best to be persians, without all that clear an idea of what things were actually like in perisa.
As silk and cotton were already cheap in the subcontinent before Industrialisation came along (It;s climate grows cotton really well and China is just there, no silk road needed), Indian traditional clothes today aren't all that different from athousand years ago. I mean, lots of fashion clothes anyway, but the materials and fundamentals still there.
 

Wagonlitz

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ZomgK3tchup

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The Romance of the Three Kingdom portraits are nice because there are literally hundreds of portraits like them.

You can find a link here.
 

TheDarkMaster

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I personally really like that they didn't sexualize the female portraits. They actually look like the sorts of average people in their forties to fifties that were selected for their abilities in their respective fields. That's something that's quite rarely done by companies when implementing this sort of thing.
 

net.split

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I personally really like that they didn't sexualize the female portraits. They actually look like the sorts of average people in their forties to fifties that were selected for their abilities in their respective fields. That's something that's quite rarely done by companies when implementing this sort of thing.
This.

If you're going to have a female in an advisor position that gives the bonuses of an inquisitor, commandant, admiral, or drillmaster, it's unlikely she got herself into that position by being in her 20s and beautiful.

The whole idea of requiring women to be beautiful to "look like women" or "not look like men" is a big problem all on its own, and kudos to Paradox for not falling into that trap. They really did a lot right with this.
 

Spartanlemur

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I personally really like that they didn't sexualize the female portraits. They actually look like the sorts of average people in their forties to fifties that were selected for their abilities in their respective fields. That's something that's quite rarely done by companies when implementing this sort of thing.

This.

If you're going to have a female in an advisor position that gives the bonuses of an inquisitor, commandant, admiral, or drillmaster, it's unlikely she got herself into that position by being in her 20s and beautiful.

The whole idea of requiring women to be beautiful to "look like women" or "not look like men" is a big problem all on its own, and kudos to Paradox for not falling into that trap. They really did a lot right with this.

If you're going to create the fantasy scenario of a woman being a military advisor, you may as well make her beautiful (which is why the argument that women finding their way into such a position doesn't stick: they wouldn't and it's not even plausible). This is actually my one major criticism of the DLC: a work of fantasy may as well benefit from the positive features of this, one of which is that everyone looks perfect.

What I'm saying is that *if* they went with historical clothing (dresses, not tricorns) then average-looking women would have been fine; not just fine but preferable! But they went with the route of fantasy clothing, so they may as well have also made the women look pleasant.

And how on earth is making a woman (or a man for that matter) look pleasant making them look "sexualised"? When did beautiful people get born as sexual objects? I'm just saying that nice-looking faces put people at ease, like ornaments; this is why characters in children's films all look handsome.


As I've said before, I support the idea behind this DLC. I do not think that there is any need to buy into this strange narrative that we should be celebrating ugly characters (whether they're male or female). I'm not being sexist here; if a work of fantasy is being created, both male and female characters should be good looking. That much is simply logical.
 

zharliette

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If you're going to create the fantasy scenario of a woman being a military advisor, you may as well make her beautiful (which is why the argument that women finding their way into such a position doesn't stick: they wouldn't and it's not even plausible). This is actually my one major criticism of the DLC: a work of fantasy may as well benefit from the positive features of this, one of which is that everyone looks perfect.

What I'm saying is that *if* they went with historical clothing (dresses, not tricorns) then average-looking women would have been fine; not just fine but preferable! But they went with the route of fantasy clothing, so they may as well have also made the women look pleasant.

And how on earth is making a woman (or a man for that matter) look pleasant making them look "sexualised"? When did beautiful people get born as sexual objects? I'm just saying that nice-looking faces put people at ease, like ornaments; this is why characters in children's films all look handsome.


As I've said before, I support the idea behind this DLC. I do not think that there is any need to buy into this strange narrative that we should be celebrating ugly characters (whether they're male or female). I'm not being sexist here; if a work of fantasy is being created, both male and female characters should be good looking. That much is simply logical.

Right...Are male advisors particulary beautiful? I of course, mean not the artistic quality of the pictures, but as "yep, would bang" beautiful? What would be the purpose of highly beautiful, almost sexualised, advisor portraits, in the context of this game? What makes it so, that male portraits can be sort of average looking, but female ones need to be beautiful?
 

net.split

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If you're going to create the fantasy scenario of a woman being a military advisor, you may as well make her beautiful (which is why the argument that women finding their way into such a position doesn't stick: they wouldn't and it's not even plausible). This is actually my one major criticism of the DLC: a work of fantasy may as well benefit from the positive features of this, one of which is that everyone looks perfect.

What I'm saying is that *if* they went with historical clothing (dresses, not tricorns) then average-looking women would have been fine; not just fine but preferable! But they went with the route of fantasy clothing, so they may as well have also made the women look pleasant.

And how on earth is making a woman (or a man for that matter) look pleasant making them look "sexualised"? When did beautiful people get born as sexual objects? I'm just saying that nice-looking faces put people at ease, like ornaments; this is why characters in children's films all look handsome.


As I've said before, I support the idea behind this DLC. I do not think that there is any need to buy into this strange narrative that we should be celebrating ugly characters (whether they're male or female). I'm not being sexist here; if we're creating a work of fantasy, both male and female characters should be good looking.
Women rarely held formal positions of "military advisor," but some were able to exert influence in such a manner as to provide a similar effect for their nation as what the advisor's bonus grants. That's what many of the events simulate, for instance. And despite your protests, these events are from actual history, not fantasy. Maybe there's an advisor slot or two that's not intended to be filled with an actual historical woman, but the vast majority of this content is solidly rooted in the real history of our world.

But that's a side-story to the main thrust of your post above, which has two major issues with it.

First, you're holding onto the classic double-standard; the men can look like whatever, the women should look beautiful. That's your preference because it's what appeals to you personally, the male gamer. Men can come in a wide variety of appearances because whatever who cares, but the women should look nice because that's pleasant for you. You are not considering the female gamer in your complaint. Having a wide variety of depictions of men in a game makes men more comfortable playing the game; it feels natural, and there's probably someone there who looks something like you. When all the women look beautiful, the game is sending a message to female gamers: this game is for men, and the women in it are here for the enjoyment of men, not for you. You are probably inclined to disagree with this, but please believe me: if you are a man then it is very difficult to impossible for you to truly understand this. There is no equivalent experience you can draw from (no, not even all the pretty male actors in movies, because even there, there's still a much greater variety of types of men in terms of physical appearance). You must choose to believe the women who tell you this and the researchers who back this up with decades of evidence.

Second, you seem to waver between calling these portraits "average" and "ugly." I don't think this is an accident; I think they're basically the same as far as you're concerned. This isn't your fault; it's just a result of the media you've been drowned with since the day you were born. Women are almost always depicted as beautiful, except when they're not for some specific reason (usually because they're either a joke or a villain). So, anything that's not beautiful is ugly by comparison, even if she's average. Worse, a number of these portraits actually depict quite attractive women! They have great facial symmetry, appropriate features and proportions (nose / chin size), even great hair for the most part. But they're a bit older, they're not covered in makeup, and probably most importantly, they're not smiling or otherwise making appealing facial expressions. Suddenly this is "ugly!" This, of course, has very harmful effects on women as a whole, also backed up with decades of research if you care to dig into it.

It's not about "celebrating ugly characters." It's about representing real people first and foremost, and also about making the game more appealing to people who aren't men. This may be frustrating to you, as a man, since the default for things is typically to cater to your preferences (see: most other games, movies, and shows ever). But surely, with this small free DLC offered on International Women's Day, you can set that aside and let the other half of the population have a few scraps?
 

Cymsdale

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Women rarely held formal positions of "military advisor," but some were able to exert influence in such a manner as to provide a similar effect for their nation as what the advisor's bonus grants. That's what many of the events simulate, for instance. And despite your protests, these events are from actual history, not fantasy. Maybe there's an advisor slot or two that's not intended to be filled with an actual historical woman, but the vast majority of this content is solidly rooted in the real history of our world.

But that's a side-story to the main thrust of your post above, which has two major issues with it.

First, you're holding onto the classic double-standard; the men can look like whatever, the women should look beautiful. That's your preference because it's what appeals to you personally, the male gamer. Men can come in a wide variety of appearances because whatever who cares, but the women should look nice because that's pleasant for you. You are not considering the female gamer in your complaint. Having a wide variety of depictions of men in a game makes men more comfortable playing the game; it feels natural, and there's probably someone there who looks something like you. When all the women look beautiful, the game is sending a message to female gamers: this game is for men, and the women in it are here for the enjoyment of men, not for you. You are probably inclined to disagree with this, but please believe me: if you are a man then it is very difficult to impossible for you to truly understand this. There is no equivalent experience you can draw from (no, not even all the pretty male actors in movies, because even there, there's still a much greater variety of types of men in terms of physical appearance). You must choose to believe the women who tell you this and the researchers who back this up with decades of evidence.

Second, you seem to waver between calling these portraits "average" and "ugly." I don't think this is an accident; I think they're basically the same as far as you're concerned. This isn't your fault; it's just a result of the media you've been drowned with since the day you were born. Women are almost always depicted as beautiful, except when they're not for some specific reason (usually because they're either a joke or a villain). So, anything that's not beautiful is ugly by comparison, even if she's average. Worse, a number of these portraits actually depict quite attractive women! They have great facial symmetry, appropriate features and proportions (nose / chin size), even great hair for the most part. But they're a bit older, they're not covered in makeup, and probably most importantly, they're not smiling or otherwise making appealing facial expressions. Suddenly this is "ugly!" This, of course, has very harmful effects on women as a whole, also backed up with decades of research if you care to dig into it.

It's not about "celebrating ugly characters." It's about representing real people first and foremost, and also about making the game more appealing to people who aren't men. This may be frustrating to you, as a man, since the default for things is typically to cater to your preferences (see: most other games, movies, and shows ever). But surely, with this small free DLC offered on International Women's Day, you can set that aside and let the other half of the population have a few scraps?

Wonderfully put.