If you subtract the upkeep of food and consumer goods required for the pops involved, clerk spam becomes wildly less appealing unless you hit a point of overpopulation where they would just stand around anyway.
Paradise Dome + Generators vs Commerce Megaplex + City
- Thread starter Acheron
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
I don't know what version or mod you're running but its right there in vanilla non-beta version.
I guess it also really depends on your overall economy/politics. Right now I'm playing as a full on trade value increases megacorp and of course as a megacorp you never have to build energy districts unless you get really screwed with your potential trade partners. (I had 4! other megacorps as my first contacts on a medium map) I have built not even a dozen energy districts early on when you don't have the manpower or capital to invest in trade. But now I'm at the point where I could replace all generators with just city districts and have no issues with energy or consumer goods whatsoever. I actually produce no consumer goods at all and have a net surplus of roughly 180 in the late midgame.
Also I went and tried synthetic ascension just for shits and giggles and with that there is a whole new layer of things to consider. If you go that route Clerks (and Merchant/ a bunch of the megacorps leaders) actually produce everything a pop needs to live: energy, consumer goods and amenities. Housing you'll have enough by simply skipping farms and generators. Really interesting interactions.
E: With my setup a clerk produces roughly 3.6 trade value which translates to 1.8 energy and 0.9 consumer goods. I have 30% reduction in robot upkeep but you can get 40% or maybe even more. I'm not fully materialist. The clerk himself needs 0.7 energy and (with welfare) 0.35 consumer goods. So a single clerk can supply 1 and a bit extra pops with energy and consumer goods. If you add some of the trade generating pops of megacorps you produce a huge surplus in consumer goods. And energy you of course get tons from your branch offices.
Also I went and tried synthetic ascension just for shits and giggles and with that there is a whole new layer of things to consider. If you go that route Clerks (and Merchant/ a bunch of the megacorps leaders) actually produce everything a pop needs to live: energy, consumer goods and amenities. Housing you'll have enough by simply skipping farms and generators. Really interesting interactions.
E: With my setup a clerk produces roughly 3.6 trade value which translates to 1.8 energy and 0.9 consumer goods. I have 30% reduction in robot upkeep but you can get 40% or maybe even more. I'm not fully materialist. The clerk himself needs 0.7 energy and (with welfare) 0.35 consumer goods. So a single clerk can supply 1 and a bit extra pops with energy and consumer goods. If you add some of the trade generating pops of megacorps you produce a huge surplus in consumer goods. And energy you of course get tons from your branch offices.
Last edited:
It's called, "Demolish", but yeah. You can perform seamless replacements as well. I replace some or all of the City districts my home planet starts with because it has the most reliable spread of resource deposits.
I hear of people turning their home planets into Ecumenopoli, but I can't approve because they always hav egood deposits. I prefer to pick out a planet with bad deposits or my species has poor habitability with. The pop upkeep while the city districts are building is a trial for a while, but I think it's worth it in the long run.
Last edited:
Replacing seems really buggy though. You can replace an infinite amount of districts. The game will still take your minerals but just cancel the orders that are actually impossible to do after a day.
There are some really important additional considerations to take into account here, some of which others have touched on.
As Olterin pointed out, there are techs that increase the productivity of technicians, while no such techs exist for clerks, but it goes deeper than that. Trade value is not considered a "resource," per se, so it is not impacted by bonuses that increase "resources from jobs." So that skill level bonus from your governor? Helps technicians, but not clerks. Ditto for efficient processors, robust trait, serviles, synthetics, etc. I have a late game save from a synthetically ascended empire where my technicians are producing 11 energy per pop, while my clerks still produce 2 trade value each. Trade value does benefit from planet/empire modifiers like the Open Markets tradition, Free Traders civic, and xenophile ethics (as well as high stability, which other pops get as a resource production bonus), but these are generally harder to come by than straight up pop resource production bonuses.
There is an interesting wrinkle in there, though, in that those rare traits that do provide pop-level bonuses to trade value, such as Thrifty or Merchant of Numa pops, stack multiplicatively with other trade value bonuses. So let's say I'm playing a MegaCorp gunning for all the trade value bonuses I can get my grubby hands on. I play Fanatic Xenophile (20%), with Free Trader Civic (10%), grab the diplomacy tree second for open markets (10%), crank stability up to max (30%), build a Galactic Stock Exchange (20%), and get a Trader Enclave governor (10%). That adds up to +100%, which, applied to my Thrifty clerks' production of 2.5 trade value, leads to 5 trade value per clerk. Still not nearly as good as what we can get from a boosted technician, but under Consumer Benefits trade policy, 10 clerks in a Commerce Megaplex produce 12.5 consumer goods, minus 2.5 for their own upkeep (assuming Decent Conditions), giving you 10 CG without the need for a constant stream of minerals and industrial infrastructure.
With clerks being less productive on a per-pop basis, as Yerm points out, upkeep rears its ugly head. If you're going to clerk spam, you want cheap pops, both in terms of upkeep and housing. If you're running a stratified economy or taking slaves, clerk jobs are a great place to stick all those filthy serfs. If you're using Shared Burdens, on the other hand, or just have issues with habitability, your workers are pretty expensive, so you want them to be as few and productive as possible.
Thus, the consideration of whether to go for lots of clerks vs. other worker jobs is not just one to be made on a planet-by-planet basis, but with empire-wide considerations in mind. Do you have a lot of space and mineral income to supply a healthy amount of industry for consumer good production? Are there factors in your empire that increase the cost of your worker pops (e.g. high living standards, poor habitability, etc.)? Do you have strong resource production bonuses? If so, then stacking clerks probably isn't a good deal for you. In a wide empire, a large planet with not many resource districts might still better serve with a specialist focus (forges, industry, tech) than a bunch of commerce buildings, and protecting trade routes from far-flung planets can be a pain, unless you have an abundance of slaves or other cheap pops. On the other hand, if you're low on space, have cheap worker pops, and don't have as many production advantages, then focusing on trade might be a good strategy for getting the most out of what you have. In addition to the energy credits, a Commerce Megaplex provides consumer goods, meaning you need less space for industry, and amenities, meaning you don't have to sacrifice building slots just for employing a few entertainers.
All in all, it's a really interesting comparison, and you have to take into account a lot of factors, ranging from how you set up your empire in the start to what conditions are like on the ground, to figure out where your best options are.
As Olterin pointed out, there are techs that increase the productivity of technicians, while no such techs exist for clerks, but it goes deeper than that. Trade value is not considered a "resource," per se, so it is not impacted by bonuses that increase "resources from jobs." So that skill level bonus from your governor? Helps technicians, but not clerks. Ditto for efficient processors, robust trait, serviles, synthetics, etc. I have a late game save from a synthetically ascended empire where my technicians are producing 11 energy per pop, while my clerks still produce 2 trade value each. Trade value does benefit from planet/empire modifiers like the Open Markets tradition, Free Traders civic, and xenophile ethics (as well as high stability, which other pops get as a resource production bonus), but these are generally harder to come by than straight up pop resource production bonuses.
There is an interesting wrinkle in there, though, in that those rare traits that do provide pop-level bonuses to trade value, such as Thrifty or Merchant of Numa pops, stack multiplicatively with other trade value bonuses. So let's say I'm playing a MegaCorp gunning for all the trade value bonuses I can get my grubby hands on. I play Fanatic Xenophile (20%), with Free Trader Civic (10%), grab the diplomacy tree second for open markets (10%), crank stability up to max (30%), build a Galactic Stock Exchange (20%), and get a Trader Enclave governor (10%). That adds up to +100%, which, applied to my Thrifty clerks' production of 2.5 trade value, leads to 5 trade value per clerk. Still not nearly as good as what we can get from a boosted technician, but under Consumer Benefits trade policy, 10 clerks in a Commerce Megaplex produce 12.5 consumer goods, minus 2.5 for their own upkeep (assuming Decent Conditions), giving you 10 CG without the need for a constant stream of minerals and industrial infrastructure.
With clerks being less productive on a per-pop basis, as Yerm points out, upkeep rears its ugly head. If you're going to clerk spam, you want cheap pops, both in terms of upkeep and housing. If you're running a stratified economy or taking slaves, clerk jobs are a great place to stick all those filthy serfs. If you're using Shared Burdens, on the other hand, or just have issues with habitability, your workers are pretty expensive, so you want them to be as few and productive as possible.
Thus, the consideration of whether to go for lots of clerks vs. other worker jobs is not just one to be made on a planet-by-planet basis, but with empire-wide considerations in mind. Do you have a lot of space and mineral income to supply a healthy amount of industry for consumer good production? Are there factors in your empire that increase the cost of your worker pops (e.g. high living standards, poor habitability, etc.)? Do you have strong resource production bonuses? If so, then stacking clerks probably isn't a good deal for you. In a wide empire, a large planet with not many resource districts might still better serve with a specialist focus (forges, industry, tech) than a bunch of commerce buildings, and protecting trade routes from far-flung planets can be a pain, unless you have an abundance of slaves or other cheap pops. On the other hand, if you're low on space, have cheap worker pops, and don't have as many production advantages, then focusing on trade might be a good strategy for getting the most out of what you have. In addition to the energy credits, a Commerce Megaplex provides consumer goods, meaning you need less space for industry, and amenities, meaning you don't have to sacrifice building slots just for employing a few entertainers.
All in all, it's a really interesting comparison, and you have to take into account a lot of factors, ranging from how you set up your empire in the start to what conditions are like on the ground, to figure out where your best options are.
Wow that's amazingly thorough! I knew I was missing so much more on the trade value distinction, thanks for your insight!
Seconded, thank you Kaigen.
I guess one should focus more on planet size, that is, district numbers. Makes me wonder though, wouldn't you always want to unlock all building slots, that is, have a population of at least 80?
My goal is always to unlock every building slot if at all possible as well, but you have to keep an eye on your overall situation. A lot of the most useful buildings require an input of minerals, either directly or in the form of consumer goods, every building has an energy upkeep, and 80 pops need food and their own supply of consumer goods depending on their conditions. Often times, when I'm filling up a planet I'll start off with resource districts to employ the early pops while building slots are unlocking and then possibly replace some with cities later if I'm running out of room and my basic resource intake is secure. Other times I'm rolling in the minerals and such and I'll just start stacking cities from the get go.
Incidentally, this thread has gotten me thinking about Agrarian Idyll, particularly with Shared Burden. Clerks are especially marginal under SB because with an upkeep of 0.4 CG per, they barely pay their own upkeep under consumer benefits (and heaven help you if you ever switch to Utopian Abundance), so you want your workers to be in more productive jobs, and you don't want to have to use too many city districts if you don't have to. Communal Housing helps with that for a start, but AgId should add to that with the additional housing from resource districts, plus amenities from your farmers so you don't have a shortfall from the lack of amenities from clerks. It's too bad that the ethics don't work with Inward Perfection, because the planetary prospecting for more planetary features would be a great boon as well. Maybe I'll fire up some communist snails and see how it goes.
Incidentally, this thread has gotten me thinking about Agrarian Idyll, particularly with Shared Burden. Clerks are especially marginal under SB because with an upkeep of 0.4 CG per, they barely pay their own upkeep under consumer benefits (and heaven help you if you ever switch to Utopian Abundance), so you want your workers to be in more productive jobs, and you don't want to have to use too many city districts if you don't have to. Communal Housing helps with that for a start, but AgId should add to that with the additional housing from resource districts, plus amenities from your farmers so you don't have a shortfall from the lack of amenities from clerks. It's too bad that the ethics don't work with Inward Perfection, because the planetary prospecting for more planetary features would be a great boon as well. Maybe I'll fire up some communist snails and see how it goes.
Yeah, this is why I can't run a large empire on the backs of clerks. I can get mileage out of the clerks, but if you are really pushing ships and things that consume tons of energy, you need those technicians thanks to all the things that boost them.
I did that with a full ecumenpolis a few games ago. I was heavy into slavery, so I couldn't use slaves to run those alloy buildings. But I built the ecumenpolis in the heart of my empire (on a planet that was otherwise crap), so trade was easy to defend. So, I spammed alloy districts, but the slaves on the planet went to be clerks in clerk buildings. It was a really dystopian world in retrospect: no entertainers, holo-theaters, paradise domes, or anything nice. Just alloy districts, production ministry, the Psi Corps, a nexus, and a ton of commerce buildings with slaves in them toiling away generating just enough amenities to make things tolerable for the rest of the POPs there.
If you compare compare energy production, why would you use "Consumer Benefits Trade Policy" ?
Makes no sense.
For a useful comparision double the trade value --> 30 energy
Hadn't thought about that enough. Though of course, clerks DO produce the energy and CG out of thin air, in contrast to civilian Factories that eat into your minerals. But I guess that highlights the importance of minerals, doesn't it?
If you are starved for energy, yes. But I assumed "normal conditions", when the question is not how to optimize your energy output, but how to optimize the space available.
Wait, no they don't. Don't you still need consumer goods and food for the clerks?
You would need at least as much upkeep for those pops no matter where you use them. But clerks use no minerals to produce cgs via trade, is the point.
Exactly. However, the piracy issue is a big one. Sadly, handling piracy is not much fun so far.