Papers please - aka Canals have permissions now

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Nicolas I

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The response required a larger look at the picture in question. The Italian player will have the mobile forces to link up with the AOI as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure if HOI IV will have this feature however in OTL SM.82 where ferrying men, material and even CR.42 fighters to the AOI. The AOI did not fall until late in 1941 so, once again imoo, the player has every chance to keep the AOI supplied until the forces link up.

Once again I have the feeling you do not read.

With the new HOI4 "supply limit" system [that I don't completely like for fuel reasons], the Italians forces will have some local supply, so I completely agree they are more likely to survive or as you say "every chance to keep the AOI supplied until the forces link up".

This was not the case in HOI3 where they were completely cut-off from the day the war started. For this, the new system is an improvement.
 
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Sparrow

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I answer the question from a historical and game meta view point. If you do not like the answer because it does not fit your one and done mold no need to continue to insult. Boh.
 
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Nicolas I

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I answer the question from a historical and game meta view point. If you do not like the answer because it does not fit your one and done mold no need to continue to insult. Boh.

Strange you don't want that people completely agree with you ?

EDIT: So I will try once to explain once more.

Historically the Italians in East Africa did fight quite a long time from June 1940 to November 1941 (with some guerrilla until september 1943).

In HOI3, without supply because Suez is closed Italians troops were rapidly starving without supplies, unless they take Egypt and/or Suez. That was not perfectly historical.

In HOI4, as the "supply limit" system give you some supplies (equipments) for Victory points and provinces, we can think that Italian troops in East Africa will be able survive on their own with the (limited) local "supply limit" they have. That may allow more historical resistance from Italians.
 
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potski

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That classification may work for the Panama Canal owned by the US shown, but navigation of the Suez Canal was governed by treaty. Under the Convention of Constantinople, passage of the Suez Canal is "in time of war as in time of peace by every vessel of commerce or war without distinction of flag..."
True, and there are different rules to cover this. But, the Convention included Article I, guaranteeing passage to all ships during war and peace. However, this was in tension with Article X, which allowed Egypt to take measures for "the defence of Egypt and the maintenance of public order." The latter clause was used to defend the actions by the UK (as occupier of Egypt) in both the First and the Second World War and by Egypt against Israeli shipping after 1948.

Obviously, this applies only when UK is at war, not when Italy is at war against Ethiopia. Italy can send Army, Navy and supplies through the canal in 1936. But not once they invade France in May 1940, and then invade Egypt. Then the UK blocks them from using the canal.
 
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Sir Garnet

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In HOI3, without supply because Suez is closed Italians troops were rapidly doomed starving without supplies, unless they take Egypt and/or Suez. That was not perfectly historical.

In HOI4, as the "supply limit" system give you some supplies (equipments) for Victory points and provinces, we can think that Italian troops in East Africa will be able survive on their own with the (limited) local "supply limit" they have. That may allow more historical resistance from Italians.

In HOI3 (with HPP at least), puppeting Ethiopia allows Italy to draw on Ethiopian supplies - not enough for a huge army, but for a reasonable force. I think the HOI4 system makes more sense so long as it does not become too easy to "live off the land" when it's really not plausible.

True, and there are different rules to cover this. But, the Convention included Article I, guaranteeing passage to all ships during war and peace. However, this was in tension with Article X, which allowed Egypt to take measures for "the defence of Egypt and the maintenance of public order." The latter clause was used to defend the actions by the UK (as occupier of Egypt) in both the First and the Second World War and by Egypt against Israeli shipping after 1948.

Obviously, this applies only when UK is at war, not when Italy is at war against Ethiopia. Italy can send Army, Navy and supplies through the canal in 1936. But not once they invade France in May 1940, and then invade Egypt. Then the UK blocks them from using the canal.

Arguing international is usually a trap for fools when a war is under way, since powers (Britain being notably enterprising in this regard) do what they will and argue about it later. But as we are not yet in the game and at war, I'll go ahead anyway. Britain acted in a high-handed manner against both friends and neutrals during the war.Their motivation is understandable, historically and in game, but it does not make it legal. And if illegal, that creates the opening for diplomatic and military corrective action under the treaty.

Of course the British argued those provisions, but that tension does not create an inherent conflict if the belligerents conduct themselves in accordance with the treaty and no legal justification for violation of the treaty exists without specific hostile action proximate to the canal to justify it.

The rights and obligations of Egypt stand apart from the rights and obligations of the UK and other parties to the treaty, which are clear enough in the case of transit by a party without violation of the treaty terms or acts of war in the transit. As an occupier, the UK is bound as a party to its usual obligations and those of Egypt. Terms of free passage in arms but without engagement is an established element of warfare, often in the evacuation of cities or fortified positions or capitulations with honors of war or from an open city.

As a practical matter, the British piling up strong forces in Egypt don't need to violate the treaty to discourage its enemies from passing the canal in time of war or even approaching it since they are vulnerable when at sea, and make an effective invasion impossible. There are some procedural steps, but being the first to breach the treaty would put the UK in the wrong and justify diplomatic and even military action against it to restore passage, all beyond the right to station a few warships at the exit ports. It might be a welcome casus belli for direct military action against the UK to restore freedom of navigation and expelling Britain from Egypt is a credible objective to ensure that. I'm sure the Russians would offer to be responsible protectors of the canal.

I expect the treaty system is not sophisticated for the nuances, but the Dominions and allies of the UK, in the circumstances, would be justified in declining to engage in war in defense of the UK's illegal action.

Of course this requires some countries interested in pursuing corrective action - that would depend on the flow of the game. If the war played out along historical lines, I don't see countries other than Italy with motivation to challenge bad faith closure by the British, but the world can take other paths and a casus belli for a limited "police action" type of war could be quite convenient. Would be a shame to destroy the canal in the fighting to free it.
 
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podcat

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I'll talk a bit about this in a diary I got planned which will be a bag of small features we have done.
 
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Nicolas I

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In HOI3 (with HPP at least), puppeting Ethiopia allows Italy to draw on Ethiopian supplies - not enough for a huge army, but for a reasonable force. I think the HOI4 system makes more sense so long as it does not become too easy to "live off the land" when it's really not plausible...

Yes, the local "supply limit" must be balanced to support only a limited number of troops, depending on local capacity.

But if a country oversea territory, as Italy in Ethiopia (Abyssinia), relying only on local supply (that can support limited forces) is defending against another country that can draw from its local AND national supply (that can support way more troops), the second one has a big advantage because he decide to send more troops and he can support them.
 

Nicolas I

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In HOI3 (with HPP at least)...Britain acted in a high-handed manner against both friends and neutrals during the war.Their motivation is understandable, historically and in game, but it does not make it legal. And if illegal, that creates the opening for diplomatic and military corrective action under the treaty...

You are right, Germany, Italy and Japan, models of respect for international laws should have petitioned the League of nations...Oh, I forgot they quitted in 1933 and 1937 ! Or they could have declared war on the UK...what they did in 1939, 1940 and 1941.

In english I think the right expression is the pot calling the kettle black.
 

Orlunu

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Eh, no need to break such laws by closing the canals. Just have some heavy guns and Royal Marine boarding parties on the banks, and let the enemy ships come. Warships aren't that handy at fighting land based forces when wedged into a stip of water a few feet wider than their own beam.

Edit:
I think that the more interesting canal technicality would be giving each a maximum size of ship they can transport. The Iowa, for instance, was wider than the Panama Canal.
 

Zaku

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The Iowa, for instance, was wider than the Panama Canal.


False, the Iowa was built just big enough to be able to cross the Panama canal.
jq3ic3rrwcyccah8rch4.jpg
 
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You are right, Germany, Italy and Japan, models of respect for international laws should have petitioned the League of nations...Oh, I forgot they quitted in 1933 and 1937 !

The treaty provides for convening with other signatories to the treaty - whether the League might have had any jurisdiction or any value is a question, and I don't recall seeing any indication that it has any role in the game.

I think that the more interesting canal technicality would be giving each a maximum size of ship they can transport. The Iowa, for instance, was wider than the Panama Canal.

Interesting, yes, but conflicting with player expectations and streamlined gameplay that seems Paradox's direction.
 
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