Papers please - aka Canals have permissions now

[PlayerHOI]

From the last stream I have spotted a feature which did not receive attention in the dev diaries, to be honest I don't think we were supposed to know about this from Daniel's reaction when he moused over the Panama canal but that's one of the best thing about these WWW streams, its so spontaneous

From my understanding this is how canals will work in HOI IV

Canals have 4 types of units that go thru them:

- Armies (remember that in HOI IV armies no longer use dedicated transport units).
- Navies (surface ships only, a separate permissions from armies)
- Submarines (separate permissions from surface ships)
- Trade

Canals have various permission types:

- Neutral (allows for non military units to pass)
- *Friendly (allows military units to pass)
- *Hostile (does not allow any types of units to pass)

*An educated guess, not confirmed

This is a very interesting change from anything we have come to know about which traffic can go thru a Canal that you control and opens up whole new options for restricting access to various parts of the world. The only question remaining is where are the controls for these? Do they even exist? Is this controlled by the country that holds the territory or by the faction that country belongs to?

Source:

 

[Daelyn75]

From the last stream I have spotted a feature which did not receive attention in the dev diaries, to be honest I don't think we were supposed to know about this from Daniel's reaction when he moused over the Panama canal but that's one of the best thing about these WWW streams, its so spontaneous

From my understanding this is how canals will work in HOI IV

Canals have 4 types of units that go thru them:

- Armies (remember that in HOI IV armies no longer use dedicated transport units).
- Navies (surface ships only, a separate permissions from armies)
- Submarines (separate permissions from surface ships)
- Trade

Canals have various permission types:

- Neutral (allows for non military units to pass)
- *Friendly (allows military units to pass)
- *Hostile (does not allow any types of units to pass)

*An educated guess, not confirmed

This is a very interesting change from anything we have come to know about which traffic can go thru a Canal that you control and opens up whole new options for restricting access to various parts of the world. The only question remaining is where are the controls for these? Do they even exist? Is this controlled by the country that holds the territory or by the faction that country belongs to?

Source:

Good catch.

 

[The Navy Shark]

It looks as if Venezuela is in need of some freedom. I wonder if the USA will have cores on all the oil rich provinces.

In all seriousness very nice catch.

 

[Daelyn75]

It looks as if Venezuela is in need of some freedom. I wonder if the USA will have cores on all the oil rich provinces.

In all seriousness very nice catch.

In many of my HOI games, I go to Venezuela for my Oil, and try to bring them over to the Axis side. It's better to pay them for their oil, than the USA or the USSR as Germany or Japan.

 

[Sun_Killer]

Nice catch, yes but new catch not really. somebody already posted this strait and canal infobox about gibraltar or suez. So nothing new here.

 

[ikki]

lets hope the indonesian straits are in too.
along with bab el mendeb, hormuz.

Funny if one side controls the bab el mendeb and another the suez... and nothing passes thru.

 

[Axe99]

Well spotted PlayerHOI, and a great little extra bit of detail to the game as well .

 

[jtm-0]

How will Italy supply Ethiopia if they go to war with UK and cant get supply through?
Or will they only be able to use whatever they create in Ethiopia?

 

[Nicolas I]

How will Italy supply Ethiopia if they go to war with UK and cant get supply through?
Or will they only be able to use whatever they create in Ethiopia?

They are doomed sooner or later as in HOI3 and this is quite realistic.

But with the new "supply limit" system, as they have some victory points and some provinces, they will get some supplies (equipments) to survive.

 

[The Nothing]

How will Italy supply Ethiopia if they go to war with UK and cant get supply through?
Or will they only be able to use whatever they create in Ethiopia?

You just rush through Lybia to capture the Suez channel. That's what italians intended to do during the war, yet they failed. As a player, you shall not fail, or Ethiopia will fall sooner or later. With Italy, you just close the Suez channel and Gibraltar strait and you'll be pretty safe after that.

 

[Sparrow]

They are doomed sooner or later as in HOI3 and this is quite realistic.

But with the new "supply limit" system, as they have some victory points and some provinces, they will get some supplies (equipments) to survive.

Not necessarily. If there is no war over southern Epirus or it is concluded quickly that frees up one huge drain. On the one hand the game can still simulate the Greek build up on the frontier. My vague recollections from Cervi's book. Someone may correct me as much of what is known has changed over time. However the player isn't required to believe the Greeks where actually bribed sufficiently. As well as all the modern artillery and aa that went to fight the USSR is used in Africa the quality and quantitative situation changes drastically. While the binary division is often lampooned one needs to look at what it was designed to do pin the enemy down and quickly deploy forces to exploit the opportunities that where quickly able to sieze openings. From Bir el Gobi to Takrouna there are plenty of battles where the Allied forces where repulsed against dug in troop emplacements. Hell the Anzacs where busy injuring themselves instead of sending out patrols against Italian divisions investing Tobruk. The will of the troops was not the issue, supplying them with the proper equipment was the major problem. Doctrine shouldn't be much of an issue since the guerra de rapido corso was initiated in '38.

Technology wise the metallurgy to build tanks with face hardened armor and use welding was in place. Radar research should be available to the player in '36 as the basis of the work had already been in progress. There where a handful of ships with sonar at the beginning of the war so the ability for the player to further research this before active warfare should also be available. Historically over 80% of the tonnage made it through to Libia so convoys shouldn't be a huge issue. I'm going to guess the player is still stuck with M13/40 at this point however enjoying better production so maybe able to ship Littorio or Centauro to Libia much, much earlier. Even as motorized units.

Strategically the British player is now forced to ship equipment all the way around Africa vs the Italian's more direct route. With no CSIR, at least until the Germans come calling for help as they did request the force be expanded to an army, the player is in good place. The M13/40 is basically able to combat the British in 1940, see Bir el Gobi, and by this point I imagine the player has Centauro and Littorio fitted out a bit better than OTL.

So no, imoo, the situation is not hopeless for the Italian player. The central basin will be effectively blocked. Instead of having the 10th army which is in reality a giant work camp, my great uncle never used a rifle after leaving basic training, the player should have several mobile units ready to strike deep into Egypt. Of course the British player has an opportunity to improve efficiency. However there is a much easier gap for the player of Italy to close in the preparation phase.

Cheers.

 

[CharlieFox]

How will Italy supply Ethiopia if they go to war with UK and cant get supply through?
Or will they only be able to use whatever they create in Ethiopia?

For me the real question is if the UK is neutral to Itally and neutral means no army can't pass the strait, how did Italy invade Ethiopia in the first place?
Does Italy start the game as friendly with the UK or you are not allowed to close straits until certain WT is reached?
Edit: I just realized Itally starts already at war with Ethiopia so at the start of the game their army is most likely already there. But if the straits are closed does this means all the units in Ethiopia can't return to Itally?

 

[Daddl]

I would imagine at least Gibraltar can't be closed like this to neutral countries, especially because its shared between Spain and Britain. So the Italians may just have to take the long way home. Or canals can only be closed when a high WT is reached, and conquering Ethiopia will surely not let you hit that threshold, which would make sense as well.

 

[Da9L]

Actually I have already talked (very little) about this It was in the last Yapanese WWW,

at 1h3m25s

 

[henzington]

Good I would have hated if I had no choice but to give access to everyone as has been the case for the canels in EU4.

 

[PlayerHOI]

Actually I have already talked (very little) about this It was in the last Yapanese WWW,

at 1h3m25s

Ohh damn, there go my 15 minutes of fame

Question: if trade can't go thru does this also mean supplies for you armies? Or do those go under army category?

 

[Sir Garnet]

That classification may work for the Panama Canal owned by the US shown, but navigation of the Suez Canal was governed by treaty. Under the Convention of Constantinople, passage of the Suez Canal is "in time of war as in time of peace by every vessel of commerce or war without distinction of flag." The controllers playing loose with this etc. would be wrapped up in the whole peculiar Egypt situation, but as a rule free passage seems the way this should be - which presumably does not foreclose enemies from sinking ships once in the Med or the Red Sea (a risk making transit less attractive).

FYI

Treaty text in English (emphasis added by text color):

Spoiler

DATE: Friday, 2 March, 1888
CONVENTION BETWEEN GREAT BRITAIN, GERMANY, AUSTRIA-HUNGARY, SPAIN, FRANCE, ITALY, THE NETHERLANDS, RUSSIA AND TURKEY,

RESPECTING THE FREE NAVIGATION OF THE SUEZ MARITIME CANAL

Signed at Constantinople, October, 29, 1888

Ratifications deposited at Constantinople, December 22, 1888

Her Majesty etc., etc., wishing to establish, by a Conventional Act, a definite system destined to guarantee at all times, and for all the Powers, the free use of the Suez Maritime Canal, and thus to complete the system under which the navigation of this Canal has been placed by the Firman of His Imperial Majesty the Sultan, dated the 22nd February, 1866 (2 Zilkadé, 1282), and sanctioning the Concessions of His Highness the Khedive, have named as their Plenipotentiaries, that is to say: etc., etc. Who, having communicated to each other their respective full powers, found in good and due form, have agreed upon the following Articles : —

ARTICLE I

The Suez Maritime Canal shall always be free and open, in time of war as in time of peace, to every vessel of commerce or of war, without distinction of flag.

Consequently, the High Contracting Parties agree not in any way to interfere with the free use of the Canal, in time of war as in time of peace.

The Canal shall never be subjected to the exercise of the right of blockade.

ARTICLE II

The High Contracting Parties, recognising that the Fresh-Water Canal is indispensable to the Maritime Canal, take note of the engagements of His Highness the Khedive towards the Universal Suez Canal Company as regards the Fresh-Water Canal; which engagements are stipulated in a Convention bearing the date of 18th March, 1863, containing an exposé and four Articles.

They undertake not to interfere in any way with the security of that Canal and its branches, the working of which shall not be exposed to any attempt at obstruction.

ARTICLE III

The High Contracting Parties likewise undertake to respect the plant, establishments, buildings, and works of the Maritime Canal and of the Fresh-Water-Canal.

ARTICLE IV

The Maritime Canal remaining open in time of war as a free passage, even to ships of war of belligerents, according to the terms of Article I of the present Treaty, the High Contracting Parties agree that no right of war, no act of hostility, nor any act having for its object to obstruct the free navigating of the Canal, shall be committed in the Canal and its ports, even though the Ottoman Empire should be one of the belligerent Powers.

Vessels of war of belligerents shall not revictual or take in stores in the Canal and its ports of access, except in so far may be strictly necessary. The transit of the aforesaid vessels through the Canal shall be effected with the least possible delay, in accordance with the Regulations in force, and without any intermission than the resulting from the necessities of the service.

Their stay at Port Said and in the roadstead of Suez shall not exceed twenty-four hours, except in case if distress. In such case they shall be bound to leave as soon as possible. An interval of twenty-four hours shall always elapse between the sailing of a belligerent ship from one of the ports of access and the departure of a ship belonging to the hostile Power.

ARTICLE V

In time of war belligerent Powers shall not disembark nor embark within the Canal and its ports of access either troops, munitions, or materials of war. But in case of an accidental hindrance in the Canal, men may be embarked or disembarked at the ports of access by detachments not exceeding 1,000 men, with a corresponding amount of war material.

ARTICLE VI

Prizes shall be subjected, in all respects, to the same rules as the vessels of war of belligerents.

ARTICLE VII

The Powers shall not keep any vessel of war in the waters of the Canal (including lake Timsah and the Bitter Lakes).

Nevertheless, they may station vessel of war in the ports of access of Port Said and Suez, the number of which shall not exceed two for each power.

This right shall not be exercised by belligerents.

ARTICLE VIII

The agents in Egypt of the Signatory Powers of the present Treaty shall be charged to watch over its execution. In case of any event threatening the security or the free passage of the Canal, they shall meet on the summons of three of their number under the presidency of their Doyen, in order to proceed to the necessary verifications. They shall inform the Khedivial Government of the danger which they may have perceived, in order that that Government may take proper steps to insure the protection and the free use of the Canal. Under any circumstances, they shall meet once a year to take note of the due execution of the Treaty.

The last mentioned meetings shall take place under the presidency of a Special Commissioner nominated for that purpose by the Imperial Ottoman Government. A Commissioner of the Khedive may also take part in the meeting, and may preside over it in case of the absence of the Ottoman Commissioner.

They shall especially demand the suppression of any work or the dispersion of any assemblage on either bank of the Canal, the object or effect of which might be to interfere with the liberty and the entire security of the navigation.

ARTICLE IX

The Egyptian Government shall, within the limit of its powers resulting from the Firmans, and under the conditions provided for in the present Treaty, take the necessary measures for insuring the execution of the said Treaty.

In case the Egyptian Government shall not have sufficient means at its disposal, it shall call upon the Imperial Ottoman Government, which shall take the necessary measures to respond to such appeal, shall give notice thereof to the Signatory Powers of the Declaration of London of the 17th March, 1885, and shall, if necessary, concert with them on the subject.

The provisions of Articles IV, V, VII and VIII shall not interfere with the measures which shall be taken in virtue of the present Article.

ARTICLE X

Similarly, the provisions of Articles IV, V, VII and VIII shall not interfere with the measures which His Majesty the Sultan and His Highness the Khedive, in the name of His Imperial Majesty, and within the limits of the Firmans granted, might find it necessary to take for securing by their own forces the defence of Egypt and the maintenance of public order.

In case His Imperial Majesty the Sultan, or His Highness the Khedive, would find it necessary to avail themselves of the exceptions for which this article provides, the Signatory Powers of the Declaration of London shall be notified thereof by the Imperial Ottoman Government.

It is likewise understood that the provisions of the four Articles aforesaid shall in no case occasion any obstacle to the measures which the Imperial Ottoman Government may think it necessary to take in order to insure by its own forces the defence of its other possessions situated on the eastern coast of the Red Sea.

ARTICLE XI

The measures which shall be taken in the cases provided for by Article IX and X of the present Treaty shall not interfere with the free use of the Canal. In the same cases, the erection of permanent fortifications contrary to the provisions of Article VIII is prohibited.

ARTICLE XII

The High Contracting Parties, by application of the principle of equality as regards the free use of the Canal, a principle which forms one of the bases of the present Treaty, agree that none of them shall endeavour to obtain with respect to the Canal territorial or commercial advantages or privileges in any international arrangements which may be concluded. Moreover, the rights of Turkey as the territorial Power are reserved.

ARTICLE XIII

With the exception of the obligations provided for in this treaty, no encroachment is legalised on the rights of sovereignty or prerogatives deriving from the firmans.

ARTICLE XIV

The High Contracting Parties agree that the engagements resulting from present Treaty shall not be limited by the duration of the Acts of Concession of the Universal Suez Canal Company.

ARTICLE XV

The stipulations of the present Treaty shall not interfere with the sanitary measures in force in Egypt.

ARTICLE XVI

The High Contracting Parties undertake to bring the present Treaty to the knowledge of the States which have not signed it, inviting them to accede to it.

ARTICLE XVII

The present Treaty shall be ratified, and the ratifications shall be exchanged at Constantinople, within the space of one month, or sooner, if possible.

In faith of which the respective Plenipotentiaries have signed the present Treaty, and have affixed to it the seal of their arms.

Done at Constantinople, the 29th day of the month of October, in the year 1888.
(from wikisource)

As you can see, there are further specific rules regarding fortifications, non-obstruction, and landing of personnel or materiel etc.

 

[Nicolas I]

Not necessarily. If there is no war over southern Epirus or it is concluded quickly that frees up one huge drain. On the one hand the game can still simulate the Greek build up on the frontier. My vague recollections from Cervi's book. Someone may correct me as much of what is known has changed over time. However the player isn't required to believe the Greeks where actually bribed sufficiently. As well as all the modern artillery and aa that went to fight the USSR is used in Africa the quality and quantitative situation changes drastically. While the binary division is often lampooned one needs to look at what it was designed to do pin the enemy down and quickly deploy forces to exploit the opportunities that where quickly able to sieze openings. From Bir el Gobi to Takrouna there are plenty of battles where the Allied forces where repulsed against dug in troop emplacements. Hell the Anzacs where busy injuring themselves instead of sending out patrols against Italian divisions investing Tobruk. The will of the troops was not the issue, supplying them with the proper equipment was the major problem. Doctrine shouldn't be much of an issue since the guerra de rapido corso was initiated in '38.

Technology wise the metallurgy to build tanks with face hardened armor and use welding was in place. Radar research should be available to the player in '36 as the basis of the work had already been in progress. There where a handful of ships with sonar at the beginning of the war so the ability for the player to further research this before active warfare should also be available. Historically over 80% of the tonnage made it through to Libia so convoys shouldn't be a huge issue. I'm going to guess the player is still stuck with M13/40 at this point however enjoying better production so maybe able to ship Littorio or Centauro to Libia much, much earlier. Even as motorized units.

Strategically the British player is now forced to ship equipment all the way around Africa vs the Italian's more direct route. With no CSIR, at least until the Germans come calling for help as they did request the force be expanded to an army, the player is in good place. The M13/40 is basically able to combat the British in 1940, see Bir el Gobi, and by this point I imagine the player has Centauro and Littorio fitted out a bit better than OTL.

So no, imoo, the situation is not hopeless for the Italian player. The central basin will be effectively blocked. Instead of having the 10th army which is in reality a giant work camp, my great uncle never used a rifle after leaving basic training, the player should have several mobile units ready to strike deep into Egypt. Of course the British player has an opportunity to improve efficiency. However there is a much easier gap for the player of Italy to close in the preparation phase.

Cheers.

Please, do read the posts you are quoting and answering to.

I did not say Italians were doomed, end of the story.

The question was : How will Italy supply Ethiopia if they go to war with UK and cant get supply through?

I said that if they can't get supplies through, they are doomed. But I also added that with the new system the have some local "supply limit" by the way of VPs and provinces.

So they can lift the blocus by rushing to Suez (which is the known answer), or they can now also try to survive by winning in East Africa and enlarge their local "supply limit" by conquering more VPs and provinces.

 

[Nicolas I]

Actually I have already talked (very little) about this It was in the last Yapanese WWW, at 1h3m25s

Very quick and very tiny on the screen !

I prefer the screenshot the OP posted.

 

[Sparrow]

Please, do read the posts you are quoting and answering to.

I did not say Italians were doomed, end of the story.

The question was : How will Italy supply Ethiopia if they go to war with UK and cant get supply through?

I said that if they can't get supplies through, they are doomed. But I also added that with the new system the have some local "supply limit" by the way of VPs and provinces.

So they can lift the blocus by rushing to Suez (which is the known answer), or they can now also try to survive by winning in East Africa and enlarge their local "supply limit" by conquering more VPs and provinces.

The response required a larger look at the picture in question. The Italian player will have the mobile forces to link up with the AOI as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sure if HOI IV will have this feature however in OTL SM.82 where ferrying men, material and even CR.42 fighters to the AOI. The AOI did not fall until late in 1941 so, once again imoo, the player has every chance to keep the AOI supplied until the forces link up.