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Kurek

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I am playing the Papal States in the GC in EU2 (1419 onwards) and was wondering what exactly The Papal States are, I know they are the Popes land, a old byzantine province was given to the Pope, something to do with Lombards as well, but what does the papal states in the game represent?
 

Havard

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In short it is based on the land Charlemagne's dad, Pepin the Short, donated to the Pope after he conquered (northern) Italy.

For a little more long-winded explanation:
From the 4th century the Pope received land in donations/endowments. Mainly in and around Rome, but also in other parts of Italy. This land became known as the Patrimony of St. Peter. Gradually the land furthest away from Rome came outside of their control but in the area around Rome Papal power grew, and became more independant from the Empire.

In 754, Pepin the Short gave the Papacy the Exarchate of Ravenna and the Pentapolis (Rimini, Ancona, Fano, Pesaro, and Senigallia) in exchange for help against the Lombards. For a long time the Papacy struggled to exercice temporal powers in these areas.

In 774, his son, Charlemagne, confirmed the donation of his father; moreover, to give the papal claim to temporal power greater antiquity, the so-called Donation of Constantine was forged. It purported to be a grant by Roman Emperor Constantine I of great temporal power in Italy and the West to the papacy. On its basis later popes also claimed suzerainty over Naples, Sicily, and Sardinia.

In 1115, Countess Matilda of Tuscany, left her territories to the church. In the 13th and 14th century the Emperors renounced their claims to the duchy of Spoleto, the Romagna, and the March of Ancona, while the various free communes and smaller holdings (tyrannies) long resisted Papal suzerainity and actual control by its territories began only in the 16th century, when Cesare Borgia, son of Pope Alexander VI, conquered the petty states of the Romagna and Marche. After his fall in 1503 most of them passed directly under papal rule. In the early 16th century, Pope Julius II consolidated papal power by abolishing local autonomies and by participating effectively in the Italian Wars. The last principalities to lose their autonomy to the popes were Ferrara (1598) and Urbino (1631), while the duchy of Castro was added in 1649.
 

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Originally posted by Kurek
So in the 15th century the states of Romagna and Marche were not really under the Popes control? He was only ruler in name?
He ruled parts of it. Other parts (like e.g. Urbino) resisted with variable success...
 

unmerged(11206)

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Originally posted by Havard
In 1115, Countess Matilda of Tuscany, left her territories to the church. In the 13th and 14th century the Emperors renounced their claims to the duchy of Spoleto, the Romagna, and the March of Ancona, while the various free communes and smaller holdings (tyrannies) long resisted Papal suzerainity and actual control by its territories began only in the 16th century, when Cesare Borgia, son of Pope Alexander VI, conquered the petty states of the Romagna and Marche.

One of the main problems between the Popes & Emperors in the 12th-13th c. is that Matilda willed her territories first to the Church, then to the Emperor Henry V after his father's death.

All her lands except Spoleto, Ancona, & those in the Romagna were actually Imperial fiefs, not papal; therefore, upon her death, they by law devolved upon the Emperor. But since she was determined to give the Pope the means to fight Henry IV even if she died, she willed them to the Pope. But after Henry's death, his son Henry V, who got along well with Matilda, brought the Investiture struggle to an end, and so she willed them back to him.

The Emperors had never recognized her right to cede their lands to the Pope (and rightly so), and of course the Popes wouldnt accept that she'd changed her mind. So they squabbled over them for over a century until after Frederick II's death.

I dont know why they didnt just agree to the obvious; the Emperor gets the imperial fiefs (Tuscany & Emilia) and the Pope gets the papal fiefs (Spoleto & Ancona). :rolleyes:
 

The Larch

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The thing is, to accurately represent Italy at that time, EUwise, you'd need a zillion provinces.
 

unmerged(11206)

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Originally posted by The Larch
The thing is, to accurately represent Italy at that time, EUwise, you'd need a zillion provinces.

True. Im still waiting for a game that focuses only on the Empire. :D
 

Kurek

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Bah!

I picked up a few books in my college Library, in this book on Italian history there is a map from 1480's and there are quite a lot of provinces... Anyway, back to my book on German Unification...
 
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Originally posted by Kurek
I picked up a few books in my college Library, in this book on Italian history there is a map from 1480's and there are quite a lot of provinces...
Eheheh, in 1480 the map of Italy was rather simple (see also: Italy in 1494 )....if compared to northern Italy in 1300! :D Look this map: http://www.valsesiascuole.it/crosior/1medioevo/Atlante_basso Medioevo.htm (if you click near Milan, you'll see a larger map of Lombardy). That map is from this historic atlas of Italy in the Middle Age: Atlante Storico.
The map of Italy in 1494 is from the page about Europe of the Perry Castañda Map Collection.