Panzerschiff too weak?

[xtfoster]

The biggest problem with the Panzerschiff (as modeled in game) is that the Heavy Batteries (11-inch guns) don't add HP like the Medium Batteries (8-inch guns) do. This was done because they didn't want to have 2 separate hulls for Heavy and Light Cruisers (which is historically accurate for the most part) so they added HP to the Medium batteries to make CAs able to take more damage than the CLs. I haven't tried it, but I wonder what a Panzerschiff would look like with 8-inch guns (or is it even possible in game?)

 

[ow592]

The biggest problem with the Panzerschiff (as modeled in game) is that the Heavy Batteries (11-inch guns) don't add HP like the Medium Batteries (8-inch guns) do. This was done because they didn't want to have 2 separate hulls for Heavy and Light Cruisers (which is historically accurate for the most part) so they added HP to the Medium batteries to make CAs able to take more damage than the CLs. I haven't tried it, but I wonder what a Panzerschiff would look like with 8-inch guns (or is it even possible in game?)

Yes, this is exactly the problem I see.

A CA 1936 is superior to a Panzerschiff because CA has that much bigger HP

Maybe even a CL 1936 is superior ... maybe I test this later this week

A Panzerschiff with 200 or 250 HP would be valid

The current Panzerschiff with 100 HP feels like a two shot-kill (or one crit-kill) for a BB in a big fight ... too slow to evade shots and too little HP to tank serious damage

 

[Beagá]

The biggest problem with the Panzerschiff (as modeled in game) is that the Heavy Batteries (11-inch guns) don't add HP like the Medium Batteries (8-inch guns) do. This was done because they didn't want to have 2 separate hulls for Heavy and Light Cruisers (which is historically accurate for the most part) so they added HP to the Medium batteries to make CAs able to take more damage than the CLs. I haven't tried it, but I wonder what a Panzerschiff would look like with 8-inch guns (or is it even possible in game?)

See start of thread. One of the main complaints was exactly the low HP.

 

[Pz. Los]

Range makes them good for convoy raiding out in open ocean. Tweek engagement rules and lump them in as a TF with your subs and see what happens. I agree with all the comments here that the stats are junk compared to heavy cruisers but you can put BB guns on them and range is really high so they tend to crush smaller ships in open combat. Asia is a good place to send them as allies tend to center their forces in Europe leaving the convoys coming from Singapore and Malaysia open to raiding. Losses in rubber and tungsten are crippling

 

[ow592]

i hope there is something in the next patch

 

[DestinyCalls]

#buff panzerschiff

 

[Znail]

PocketBattleships could also use a bit of help, specifically Sverige class is very unhistorically underpowered. InRL it had both Battleship level guns and armor, but in game so are both Cruiser level. You can upgrade the guns (no idea why they got the wrong one now), but the class can only use Cruiser armor. I can see a slight problem with alowing Coastal Defence Ships to use Battleship armor when it comes to upgraded armor as it makes no sense that such small ships would be able to fit that thickness. But that could be solved by alowing BattleCruiser armor as that would at least make them able to shrug off Cruiser guns the way they should.

This is a bit sad as Sverige class was, according to some notes found after the war, the main reason Germany didn't want to invade Sweden as they didn't have ships suitable at fighting the Sverige class.

 

[Federkiel]

PocketBattleships could also use a bit of help, specifically Sverige class is very unhistorically underpowered. InRL it had both Battleship level guns and armor, but in game so are both Cruiser level. You can upgrade the guns (no idea why they got the wrong one now), but the class can only use Cruiser armor. I can see a slight problem with alowing Coastal Defence Ships to use Battleship armor when it comes to upgraded armor as it makes no sense that such small ships would be able to fit that thickness. But that could be solved by alowing BattleCruiser armor as that would at least make them able to shrug off Cruiser guns the way they should.

This is a bit sad as Sverige class was, according to some notes found after the war, the main reason Germany didn't want to invade Sweden as they didn't have ships suitable at fighting the Sverige class.

I made some notes after the war as well. Among many other things, the Sverige class has not made it into them.

Germany had four modern fullscale battleships being built in the late 30's which would not need to make all too much noise while silencing an ancient Sverige class once and for all and at precision and a distance the Sverige hardly could return fire. Germany also had full air superiority in the Baltics. After all, the Sverige was even more museal than the bulk of the British ships. Not an easy feat I'd say.
If the Germans had pointed at this spot of the European map, it would have been theirs. I'd not put all too much on an odd warship fan magazine cited by a well meaning person on wikipedia.


The reasons to not attack Sweden that have made into my postwar notes are:
- Sweden was no threat and expressively neutral
- obvious ideological reasons well known and not worth discussing here
- Even more important, Sweden was a willing supplier of ores that mattered for German war production (The Swedes were well off profiteering by the war which influenced their stance)
- The Swedish allowed the Germans to transport troops between Norway and Finland
- Sweden as neutral ground was an important place for international secret diplomacy and espionage

There simply was no reason to invade a neutral Sweden. The Swedes cooperated exactly the way the Germans wanted them to. What else was there to wish for i ask.


This being said, i do not oppose your statement that the ingame representation of the Sverige class is a bit off. And i support your idea that some ingame ship designs need a well thought overhaul. Therefore i agree that the Sverige joins the prominent line of the Panzerschiffe and some reconstructed battlehips/-cruisers of Italy and Japan which received too little love by the devs.

 

[Znail]

Germany had four modern fullscale battleships being built in the late 30's which would not need to make all too much noise while silencing an ancient Sverige class once and for all and at precision and a distance the Sverige hardly could return fire. Germany also had full air superiority in the Baltics. After all, the Sverige was even more museal than the bulk of the British ships. Not an easy feat I'd say.
If the Germans had pointed at this spot of the European map, it would have been theirs. I'd not put all too much on an odd warship fan magazine cited by a well meaning person on wikipedia.

The ships were modernised several times, so calling them museal seems unfunded. As for range, that would assume a battle at open sea, but to invade Sweden so would German ships have to enter the Swedish coastal area wich is shallow and full of islands. And unless you think invading the southern tip of Sweden is a good idea then German fighters would have a lot longer to fly then over the English channel.

As a side note, upgrading ships costs far too much that historical upgrades are not worth the effort.

 

[Xiziz]

- Increased Panzerschiff HP from 100 to 220 to make them more inline with heavy cruisers
​

From the patch log, gonna have to test the viability of them again. Surface visibility is still a tad high but the new screen ratio of 3:1 also works in favour. I'm thinking a pzshiffe, CL and two DD as a raiding group might work well.

It does make it a lot tougher decision if to convert them into cvs, probably not worth it anymore.

 

[Harin]

It could be coincidence, but I am going to assume threads like this help in getting such changes into the game. Good going OP!

 

[Beagá]

Paradox does pay attention when the argument makes sense.

 

[Cavalry]

- Increased Panzerschiff HP from 100 to 220 to make them more inline with heavy cruisers
​

From the patch log, gonna have to test the viability of them again. Surface visibility is still a tad high but the new screen ratio of 3:1 also works in favour. I'm thinking a pzshiffe, CL and two DD as a raiding group might work well.

It does make it a lot tougher decision if to convert them into cvs, probably not worth it anymore.

DD reduce the range of the whole fleet, try 1 pz, 1-2 CL. It is not full screen but then you can choose further location to avoid full enemy forces.

 

[Xiziz]

DD reduce the range of the whole fleet, try 1 pz, 1-2 CL. It is not full screen but then you can choose further location to avoid full enemy forces.

Yeah, I'll have to try that too, need to keep cost down though, and with basing rights from Venezuela range is good enough, was with 1cl and 2 DD atleast.

 

[ow592]

It could be coincidence, but I am going to assume threads like this help in getting such changes into the game. Good going OP!

yay! Finally they buffed it

 

[aaaaburnHOI]

PocketBattleships could also use a bit of help, specifically Sverige class is very unhistorically underpowered. InRL it had both Battleship level guns and armor, but in game so are both Cruiser level. You can upgrade the guns (no idea why they got the wrong one now), but the class can only use Cruiser armor. I can see a slight problem with alowing Coastal Defence Ships to use Battleship armor when it comes to upgraded armor as it makes no sense that such small ships would be able to fit that thickness. But that could be solved by alowing BattleCruiser armor as that would at least make them able to shrug off Cruiser guns the way they should.

This is a bit sad as Sverige class was, according to some notes found after the war, the main reason Germany didn't want to invade Sweden as they didn't have ships suitable at fighting the Sverige class.

Germany would have used aircraft and torpedoes to sink the Swedish Navy.

To support this, during Operation Weserbung, HNoMS Eidsvold and HNoMS Norge, both built before 1905 and hopelessly obsolete, attempted to put up a fight against the invading German warships; both were torpedoed and sunk.

Germany didnt invade Sweden because they didnt have to. Sweden cooperated with providing iron ore, so it saved hundreds of thousands of german soldiers from having to invade and occupy. Norway might not have been invaded if the British had not sought to use Norway as a stepping stone to attack Germany or interception of Swedish iron ore. The naval and air bases to attack Atlantic shipping were a huge plus.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

Yep Norway and Denmark were the sticking point for the Alies and Axis-Leader Germany. Denmark could close the Passage between East-Sea and North Sea and had long time Island as a Colony in his Hands. With both out of Order the Axis-Leader Germany had more Air to breace.

Norway was the other sticking point. As some of you said already Norway was a strategic Point for the Allies and the Axis-Leader Germany. The Alies (esp. UK) planed a seperate Invasion to control all of the Convoi-Routes, because this was the last Peace of Place where the Germans could navigate relatively save. The English Chanel and all the Routes around UK incl. Shetland, Scotland and one other Island in the Near (didn´t remember the Name) was a high risk to drive through for all Axis Ships.

You can see it yourself if you play Germany. What Parts of the Map are free, after you said to your ships no drivethrough in the Near of UK? Then you see what I mean.

About the Panzerships / Heavy Cruisers: You can upgrade them before the War. Upgrade them to the heavy Cruiser-Armor (Type II), Type II-Weapons (the existing AA, Main Guns, Secondary Guns and Torpedos) for the beginning. 1939 you upgrade the last 2 Main-Things to Type II (Radar = that you have to build in and the upgrade from the Fire Control). With the first upgraded Gunshells you have all of your heavy Cruisers and Panzerships up to date.

About Heavy Cruisers: They will get the Type II-Engine and all that things the Panzerships will get as an upgrade, which is Level 0 or 1 on the Heavy Cruisers too (like AA, Radar, Secondary Guns and Torpedos).

Sidenote: Greenland is good thanks fully in Denmark Hands since the Vikings left this colonised Place. If it were in US-Hands the World would be destroyed until now. What a Role it has in WW 2 I don´t know, but for the Cold War it was from emensly relevance.

On other Point: The Swedish Navy was on the wrong time at the wrong place. They never had an chance to win against the newer or upgraded German Ships. Same for Norway, Denmark and Benelux. Only their Subs and new DD´s where a dignifent Enemy. Had checked this for an RPG and had to search very long for that Comparision.

 

[Pz. Los]

It’s matter of tactics, both practical and real world. The new patch ups the hp which was great but these are still not meant for line fleet use. Bismarck is perfect example of what these ships were meant to do, raid and also keep the DDs off the Wolfpacks while they torpedoed merchants. It’s a perfect storm for the enemy with the subs shooting up the merchant convoys and Panzerschiff at least tying up the convoy escorts. If you’ve been in the Navy, you know sub hunting via ship sonar is a tough prospect. Not even really done anymore by ship, primarily aircraft and other subs. Surface ships generally run. Circa 1939-40 it was still tough yet DDs were a major danger to subs but it’s hard to sub hunt when you’re taking fire from an up gunned and up armored heavy cruiser. Bismarck was sunk heading out to open ocean to do this very thing and the Brits were soiling there short pants because they knew that it was a nightmare scenario. Look what they sent after Bismarck, Ark Royal being the most significant example. Granted Bismarck was a true battleship but it was considered to be part of the informal “fast battleships”

 

[Hoi Neuling]

Belongs for what you use the 3 Panzerships and 3 new Heavy Cruisers. I use the Panzerships for Convoy-Hunting in the near of Africa and South America. And the 3 Admiral-Hippers too. Why? I wanna have them out of Range from the Homefleet. And the Brits have to splitt their Navy for Italy, Japan and Germany.

The Subs II and VII hunt Convoys in the Atlantic ocean or in the near of Gibraltar and split the Homefleet much more.

The Emden, Leipzig and Nürnberg do Escort-Dutys with 4 DD´s and 4 new Torpedoboats each. Therfore you need the correct Focusses too.

For all 3 announced Fleets I research the correct Focuses before WW 2.

So your Main-Minelayers have a little free breath for their duty around UK and the Help-Minelayer on the Norway and Norway and Denmark-Coast.

 

[Znail]

Germany would have used aircraft and torpedoes to sink the Swedish Navy.

To support this, during Operation Weserbung, HNoMS Eidsvold and HNoMS Norge, both built before 1905 and hopelessly obsolete, attempted to put up a fight against the invading German warships; both were torpedoed and sunk.

Germany didnt invade Sweden because they didnt have to. Sweden cooperated with providing iron ore, so it saved hundreds of thousands of german soldiers from having to invade and occupy. Norway might not have been invaded if the British had not sought to use Norway as a stepping stone to attack Germany or interception of Swedish iron ore. The naval and air bases to attack Atlantic shipping were a huge plus.

Those two are not very similar to Sverige class ships, so not very relevant examples. Let us compare armament

HNoMS Norge

• 2 × 21 cm (8.26 inch) guns
• 6 × 15 cm (5.90 inch) guns
• 6 × 7.6 cm (3 inch) guns
• Torpedo tubes
• Anti-aircraft armament:
• 2 × 76 mm anti-aircraft guns
• 2 × 20 mm Oerlikon guns
• 2 × 12.7 mm Colt anti-aircraft machine guns
• 4 × 7.92 mm Colt anti-aircraft machine gun

HSwMS Sverige

• 4 ×Bofors 283 mm gun M/1912 (2×2)
• 6 × 152 mm/50cal. Bofors QF M/1912 (1×2, 4×1)
• 4 × 75 mm/60cal. Bofors AA M/1928 (2×2)
• 6 × 40 mm/56cal. Bofors AA M/1936 (3×2)
• 4 × 25 mm/58cal. Bofors AA M/1932 (2×2)
• 3 × 20 mm/66cal. Bofors AA M/1940 (3×1)
• 4 × 8 mm/75,8cal. AA MG M/1936 (2×2)

Quite a lot more AA, so not quite as vulnerable to planes. Then Sweden had an actual airforce while Stockholm is much farther away then Oslo from Denmark, that no German fighters would be able to escort any German torpedo planes making it a suicide mission. On the other hand Swedish torpedo bombers would be in range of German unescorted ships. It would have been a hopeless task to take any invasion force through the island dotted coast anyway, wich was the main reason that Sverige class ships mattered. As Germany couldn't use actual Battleships in such a place so would they have to use smaller ships that were both under gunned and easily sunk by the big guns of the Sverige class.