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xtfoster

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Completely agree, Admiral Graf Spee, despite being outnumbered 3:1 by enemy cruisers managed to cripple all but 1 of her 3 adversaries, of course at the cost of heavy damage on her own. But in the end I reckon that CA's and both their derivative special classes need a bit of a balance pass in terms of capability and cost. None of them or cost effective or particularly useful outside of a few niche cases atm it seems.
First off, Graf Spee didn't cripple all but 1 of the 3 enemies. Exeter was damaged severly enough to force it to retire, Ajax and Achilles were both moderately damaged but not crippled. So at best they crippled 1 of their 3 adversaries...and whether Exeter was crippled is debatable. Typically crippled refers to damage to a single system the so impairs a vessels war fighting capability as to render it non-combat capable. Exeter was for the most part rendered non-combat capable, but because of general damage, not a 'critical hit'. Most accounts I have found show the Graf Spee as the one being crippled (her fuel system), with moderate to heavy damage to her 3 opponents.
 

Caeric

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Well I suppose if completely combat-incapable is the definition of crippled the Ajax doesn't apply, but regardless with her X and Y turrets disabled, as well as structural damage, I have no doubt had combat continued and Graf Spee scored a few more hits on her she would have had to retreat too
 

Riekopo

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You are not wrong. PocketBB is not worth the IC as of right now. When I tried building up a semi-historical Plan Z surface navy, all my panzerschiffe died, while all the Admiral Hipper-class cruisers survived. There is no reason to build them. They can't do commerce raiding and they can't fight effectively in the main battle line.

Can you show me your Plan Z fleet? I'd like to build one.

Also, in general the Ship Designer is a good first pass, but it needs to be more customizable. A lot of people want to build historically accurate ships. You can get a decent approximation with the surface ships, but you can't really build historical submarines. The Ship Designer doesn't even allow your subs to have a Snorkel and Radar at the same time. It's really goofy.
 

aaaaburnHOI

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At 05:30 on the morning of 13 December 1939, lookouts spotted a pair of masts off the ship's starboard bow. Langsdorff assumed this to be the escort for a convoy mentioned in the documents recovered from Tairoa. At 05:52, however, the ship was identified as HMS Exeter; she was accompanied by a pair of smaller warships, initially thought to be destroyers but quickly identified as Leander-class cruisers. Langsdorff decided not to flee from the British ships, and ordered his ship to battle stations and to close at maximum speed. At 06:08, the British spotted Admiral Graf Spee; Harwood divided his ships to split the gunfire of Admiral Graf Spee's 28 cm guns. The German ship opened fire with her main battery at Exeter and her secondary guns at the flagship Ajax at 06:17. At 06:20, Exeter returned fire, followed by Ajax at 06:21 and Achilles at 06:24. In the span of thirty minutes, Admiral Graf Spee had hit Exeter three times, disabling her two forward turrets, destroying her bridge and her aircraft catapult, and starting major fires. Ajax and Achilles moved closer to Admiral Graf Spee to relieve the pressure on Exeter.

Langsdorff thought the two light cruisers were making a torpedo attack, and turned away under a smokescreen. The respite allowed Exeter to withdraw from the action; by now, only one of her gun turrets was still in action, and she had suffered 61 dead and 23 wounded crew members. At around 07:00, Exeter returned to the engagement, firing from her stern turret. Admiral Graf Spee fired on her again, scored more hits, and forced Exeter to withdraw again, this time with a list to port. At 07:25, Admiral Graf Spee scored a hit on Ajax that disabled her aft turrets. Both sides broke off the action, Admiral Graf Spee retreating into the River Plate estuary, while Harwood's battered cruisers remained outside to observe any possible breakout attempts. In the course of the engagement, Admiral Graf Spee had been hit approximately 70 times; 36 men were killed and 60 more were wounded, including Langsdorff, who had been wounded twice by splinters while standing on the open bridge.

Admiral Graf Spee's damage that prevented its sea worthiness were damage to its oil purification plant, holes in its bow, and damage to its desalination plant. Additionally most of its ammunition was spent fighting the 3 cruisers.

Paradox should give credit where it is due with the unique Panzerschiff Class for Germany. Faster than large battleships, bigger main guns than cruisers, but lighter armor and less ammo than cruisers. As Langsdorff found out, anything but hitting and running for Panzerschiffs likely means losing a capital ship.
 

Klausewitz

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xtfoster

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I thought their armor was basically cruiser armor.
Depends on which cruiser you compare them to.
The Deutschland Class had ~100mm (3.9-inch) Belt Armor, 45-70mm (1.8-2.8-inch) Deck Armor, and 140mm (4.5-inch) on the Turrets.
The ships the Graf Spee fought at River Plate had
HMS Ajax and Achilles (Light Cruisers) 25mm (1-inch) deck and turrets.
HMS Exeter and Cumberland (Treaty Cruisers) 76mm (3-inch) belt, 38mm (1.5-inch) deck, and 25mm (1-inch) turrets.

So slightly better than RN Treaty Cruisers, but the RN (and France and Italy in the beginning) tended to favor more guns with less armor.

However, if you compare them to other Treaty Cruisers (US Pensacola, Japanese Myoko, Italian Trento, French Duquesne) they fall in the same range.
 

Klausewitz

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So it is cruiser armor?
 

xtfoster

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So it is cruiser armor?
It is cruiser armor, but the same as used by interwar treaty Heavy Cruisers (so Level I). Definitely not equal to the later 'treaty' cruisers such as the New Orleans or Myoko class.
 

Matoro_TBS

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But they weren't in practice. Very inefficient. At most the distracted some royal navy ships.

Graf Spee and Deutschland might not have been very cost-effective at sinking ships, but they surely were at tying down large part of Allied naval forces. Allies had 8 naval task forces dedicated to hunting those two raiders, which consisted 3 carriers, 3 battleships and 15 cruisers etc. In addition they had 3 battlecruisers and 5 cruisers in escort duty in Northern Atlantic jut because of Deutschland hunted there. After those two ships were taken care of, Allied could protect their convoy routes with relatively light ships, as destroyer groups were perfectly capable of sinking submarines. Part of the idea behind surface raiders was to force the Allies to use capital ships to hunt the raiders instead of being used to anything else, and it surely worked - for some time.
 

davidc929

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Graf Spee and Deutschland might not have been very cost-effective at sinking ships, but they surely were at tying down large part of Allied naval forces. Allies had 8 naval task forces dedicated to hunting those two raiders, which consisted 3 carriers, 3 battleships and 15 cruisers etc. In addition they had 3 battlecruisers and 5 cruisers in escort duty in Northern Atlantic jut because of Deutschland hunted there. After those two ships were taken care of, Allied could protect their convoy routes with relatively light ships, as destroyer groups were perfectly capable of sinking submarines. Part of the idea behind surface raiders was to force the Allies to use capital ships to hunt the raiders instead of being used to anything else, and it surely worked - for some time.
Well it did tie down capital ships. But with the overwhelming numbers the British has consulted to Germany that didn't actually prevent them doing anything.
 

Klausewitz

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Well it did tie down capital ships. But with the overwhelming numbers the British has consulted to Germany that didn't actually prevent them doing anything.
But that is a completely different problem altogether.
 

Xiziz

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I made a quick and dirty mod with some balance changes if anyone wants to try them out - just to test out my theoretical new stats and thought I'd share. I decided against a speed buff, they are already doing their appropriate 26 knots. :)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1922390511

New(old)
HP: 250 (100)
Cost: 2500 (3500)
Fuel Consumption: 40 (20)
Armour: 2 (0)
Surface Visibility: 18 (22)
Manpower: 1200 (1800)

I think the changes should be quite in line with the discussions going on in this thread and bring it in as a strong CA. Maybe there should be a medium gun mount available (and a corresponding decrease in hp)?
 

davidc929

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But that is a completely different problem altogether.
Well no it is the problem of reality. In WW1 when Germany had a sizable battlefleet, using powerful surface warships to draw off capital ships to thin out the RN and maybe, just maybe give their main battlefleet the chance to compete on equal terms. In WW2 the relative difference in fleets sizes made that an impossibility.

At the end of the day the Panzerschiff were built as they were because that is what Germany could get away with under it's treaty obligations. It was more a case of building what they could and then trying to work out a role for the ships they had. Rather than work out the role that needed to be performed and then design to that.
 

Klausewitz

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Well no it is the problem of reality. In WW1 when Germany had a sizable battlefleet, using powerful surface warships to draw off capital ships to thin out the RN and maybe, just maybe give their main battlefleet the chance to compete on equal terms. In WW2 the relative difference in fleets sizes made that an impossibility.

At the end of the day the Panzerschiff were built as they were because that is what Germany could get away with under it's treaty obligations. It was more a case of building what they could and then trying to work out a role for the ships they had. Rather than work out the role that needed to be performed and then design to that.
Yes, I agree, but the problem of reality is another than "was it a good design for what it was meant to do?"
 

walt526

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In addition to surface raiding, the heavy attack of the Panzerschiff makes it effective for shore bombardment when attacking a port city. IIRC, you get 0.1% combat modifier for every unit of heavy attack. It's not enough to be a game changer, but it's a potential use for those ships.
 

xtfoster

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At the end of the day the Panzerschiff were built as they were because that is what Germany could get away with under it's treaty obligations. It was more a case of building what they could and then trying to work out a role for the ships they had. Rather than work out the role that needed to be performed and then design to that.
More accurately, they were built the way they were because the Germans wanted a way out of the restrictions of Versailles (which limited them to 6 'Capital Ships' and 6 Light Cruisers) and offered to join the Washington Treaty with an allotment of 125,000 tons (vs the UK's 525,000, ~24%). The US and UK were willing, but France said no, and since the ships technically didn't violate Versailles there was nothing the Allies could do to stop them from replacing their 20+ year old capital ships with them.
 

Klausewitz

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At the moment the Admiral Hipper-Class has more heavy attack (around 15) than the Graf Spee (around 11) though Graf Spee has more penetration (over 30 for the Spee, about a third for Hipper).
Is that how it should be?
 

walt526

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At the moment the Admiral Hipper-Class has more heavy attack (around 15) than the Graf Spee (around 11) though Graf Spee has more penetration (over 30 for the Spee, about a third for Hipper).
Is that how it should be?

Per Wikipedia:

Admiral Hipper:
Graf Spree:
Assuming "heavy attack" maps to guns larger than 10 cm (so a 20 to 14 advantage to Admiral Hipper), then Admiral Hipper having greater heavy attack (but less heavy penetration) looks about right to me.

If you prefer to rebalance, you can always mod it.