Panzerschiff too weak?

[Klausewitz]

It might make an old ship viable as a convoy raider by ripping out the heavy stuff, put in a bigger engine and letting it loose while still being cheaper than a CA or a BC.
But it is fringe.
It mostly does not make sense.
Not even for submarines which are dirt cheap.

 

[Secret Master]

Historically I would not need to (IIRC the Panzerschiffe only saw update of their fire direction and radar).
Also, what you dump into your upgrades could buy you a whole new fleet.
If you refit a ships armor and guns you might as well built a new ship.

That would sum up my feelings on the subject.

Better to have two kind of crappy panzerschiff and something new than 2 upgraded panzerschiff.

It isn´t worse. It´s necessary, because you can´t build enough bigships before and during WW 2.

I can finish 3 Bismark class battleships (with 1940 guns, 1940 hull, 1940 engines, RADAR, the works) in the time it took historical Germany to build just Bismark and Tirpitz. If you think Bismark and Tirpitz are 1936 BBs, I can get more done sooner, and just refit them with better RADAR later.

Hell, thanks to generous occupation laws, once Germany occupies Benelux and France, she can really start spamming capital ships.

It's worth pointing out at this point that 3 1940 BBs with 1940 techs across the board and solid air cover should massacre anything Britain starts with in 1936.

It is absolutely possible to get big ships done before the war.

Yep.

What would you rather have. Upgraded panzerschiff, or this?

Okay, so I ran my first test run to see if I can get Bismark completed in time for her historical commissioning without causing Germany to fail at her historical commitments to fighting the war.

Bismark was officially commissioned the 24th of August of 1940 after sea trials, so she was not ready to fight until that date. Thus, that is the goal of our attempt.

The short version:

I can finish three Bismark class battleships by June of 1940.

View attachment 467016

These battleships will have their 38 cm guns.

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She has Battleship armor tier 2, which I think is more than generous. She has two sets of tier 2 secondary batteries (turreted secondaries), which I think is also accurate. (Bismark does not rate DP secondaries as far as I can tell.) She gets a floatplane. She lacks her RADAR at the moment; however, when she is finished, she can get refitted with whatever RADAR you want in around 30-60 days, which still puts her completed on schedule. I just can't research tier 2 RADAR in 1938, and there is no reason to do so. That's why we have refit mechanics.

This version of Bismark uses the Raiding designer. You could use the other one if you preferred its bonuses.

The Long Version (seriously, this is pretty long).

Getting Bismark in the water and ready to fight by August of 1940 is not incredibly difficult, as long as you pay attention to NFs and research boosts. You need Plan Z done in 1936 so you can start the research on Bismark, but you also need to budget the PP for the designer so you can speed up the research of the 1940 heavy ship hull and the tier 3 heavy battery.

In this run, I did my NFs in kind of a dumb order, so I am in the position of being 1 NF away from Danzig by the historical date of the war, but I already snagged Romania via Align Romania.

View attachment 467024

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So, if I delayed Align Romania by one NF, I could fire Danzig one NF earlier, and start the war on time.

Note that I still got the Tank Treaty, MR Pact, Research Slot, Herman Goering Werke, and the KDF Wagon (which I have always assumed involves some kind of motor vehicle used by Klingons). I did not do Alliance with Italy (never need to, Italy is already in the Axis), Coal Liquefaction, or Synthetic Rubber. But I can always grab those later.

Research is in decent shape. We are already producing the Panzer IV, I am sitting at 1939 IC techs across the board (I'm not going to start the 1941 ones yet), and I have 1938 computers. We lack RADAR, but I don't need it yet; Bismark isn't finishing until June, and I haven't occupied enough of France to justify building RADAR stations yet. I am researching 1939 ART right now, but that's not related to Bismark. I delayed it so I could build more ART for the attack on Poland and France.

Current research:

View attachment 467036

The doctrine that reduces capital ship visibility will be ready well ahead of Bismark's construction.

Other research we have finished:

View attachment 467043 View attachment 467042 View attachment 467046 View attachment 467045 View attachment 467044

You will note that I swapped to Operational Integrity. If I stayed Battlefield Support, I'd be up one more air doctrine.

German production is just fine despite resources going to Bismark.

View attachment 467053 View attachment 467054 View attachment 467055

I made the decision to swap to Panzer IV now, because my currently existing panzer divisions have their quota of tanks. I can afford the massive hit to production efficiency in exchange for knowing I have some damn fine tanks coming off the factory floor. I am also converting all my old Panzer I's and Czech tanks into Wespes. It's sort of a stage one part of my panzer plan; stage two will begin when I run out of tanks to convert and research the Hummel. Right now, the panzer divisions look like this:

View attachment 467062

The remaining light tanks in the template will get swapped out after we take Warsaw. I don't want to do it right now.

I have plenty of manpower and equipment in the field:

View attachment 467059

The German army is 2.2 million men strong. It has almost everything it needs except for ART. We are still catching up in that category, but that's because I got over enthusiastic with my 40 width template:

View attachment 467063
I have enough land XP to have nice templates, but I really should have held back a little until production caught up. It's not a big deal, though. The German army can crush Poland without too much effort.

The Luftwaffe is also fine.

View attachment 467066
I don't care for TACs this time, so I've just been building CAS and fighters. The FW 190 will be finished in 53 days (before 1940 starts), so we will be fine in terms of air superiority.

I could have hit higher numbers, but I don't have a human on Italy with whom I can coordinate trade.

Speaking of trade, this is the status of the German government:

View attachment 467068
I have all the design companies I care about (I don't always get the infantry/artillery one). I went War Economy in 1936 using Goebbels. Instead of going Free Trade, I went Export Focus. In SP, going Free Trade can be problematic, so I figured I'd trade a small reduction in overall research and production output in exchange for not losing access to a few hundred steel. In MP, I would have seriously considered going Free Trade, since I know Italy will buy my steel.

Hess will be gone soon, of course, but he has more than paid for himself at this point. I have Rommel and Halder appointed; the other guys will have to wait. I don't need naval staff, since Bismark isn't finished yet. I suppose I could have traded the naval designer for Schorner and his infantry boosts, but it's not really necessary against the Poles. When the war starts, MEFO will go away, and I will have even more PP so I can fill out the general staff.

This test was not the most efficient one I could have run, but it does demonstrate that there is no reason you can't get your Bismark built and commissioned by the historical date and still have fancy tanks and all the resources needed to take out the Poles and France. In fact, someone better than me could probably slip in an extra naval NF and finish 4 Bismarks instead of the 3 I am building.

 

[Klausewitz]

@Secret Master:
It is even possible without the PlanZ focus.
But then again I don't get what the point of big ships is for Germany.

 

[Secret Master]

@Secret Master:
It is even possible without the PlanZ focus.
But then again I don't get what the point of big ships is for Germany.

I haven't thoroughly tested the changes to submarines yet. Still finishing up a game an MP game in 1.7.1.

But if submarines are slightly nerfed like they are supposed to be, then big ships can be used as solo raiders to strip screens on convoy routes periodically, then tag in the submarines to sink more convoys.

If Britain loses 35 DDs over the course of a single month to a capital ship raider, then it gets away to a port with air cover and repairs, that can seriously imperil Britain's ability to escort convoys against submarines.

But....

Then you either have to make some cheap panzerschiff or go through the trouble of building nice battleships, which takes away from the submarines you can build.

On the other hand, even a few nice battleships, strategically used, could cause Britain to commit more naval forces to the Atlantic in lieu of the Med or Pacific, so they've got that going for them.

 

[Klausewitz]

Why would I need a Panzerschiff or a BC or BB?
I have done quite well with heavy cruisers when fighting DDs.

 

[ow592]

I don´t think that Panzerschiff without upgrades is good against DDs

Panzerschiff has only little light weapons

And the speed of Panzerschiff is terrible

Will eat a lot of torps and HP is also terrible

 

[Klausewitz]

Three secondary batteries II give you 12.6 light attack, 4 hits and most destroyers should be gone.
That's one torpedo attack.

 

[Beagá]

@Secret Master:
It is even possible without the PlanZ focus.
But then again I don't get what the point of big ships is for Germany.

Sea Lion? Did you try doing it with heavy cruisers only?

I can have 2 SHBB with 1939 fire control by january 1940 (I refit the fire control). You don´t need to put AA as Germany. I put 3 heavy batteries plus extra armor from the atlantic fleet developer. With 800 planes on the Channel bombing everything they see it´s almost too easy.

But back to topic, HP for these cruisers must be reviewed, it´s their biggest flaw.

 

[Secret Master]

Why would I need a Panzerschiff or a BC or BB?
I have done quite well with heavy cruisers when fighting DDs.

I have found that CAs just don't cut it for a variety of reasons. They seem to get targeted and sunk by enemy strike groups too easy.

However, I also haven't tried going full on hardcore 1940 CA with all the bells and whistles, either. And since people kept whining when MtG came out that they couldn't build Bismark on time, I just got in the habit of going full on BB or BC if I built surface ships after showing that you could easily build them.

I don´t think that Panzerschiff without upgrades is good against DDs

Panzerschiff has only little light weapons

And the speed of Panzerschiff is terrible

Will eat a lot of torps and HP is also terrible

If the enemy has chosen to build cheap tier 1 DDs with tier 1 guns and tier 1 ASW as a way to cheaply cover convoys from submarine attack, panzerschiff will chew them to pieces.

If the enemy has built far more expensive DDs, then the enemy won't have enough DDs to cover routes from extensive submarine attacks, so you still win if you don't build them at all.

In that sense, the panzerschiff are one of the reasons the US and Britain have to think carefully about how to protect their convoys. Pure submarines merit one kind of a response. If panzerschiff are in the equation, you need to make different choices.

 

[Beagá]

In that sense, the panzerschiff are one of the reasons the US and Britain have to think carefully about how to protect their convoys. Pure submarines merit one kind of a response. If panzerschiff are in the equation, you need to make different choices.

​

Do you? UK surface fleet has all it needs to destroy a handful of Panzerschiffs. If the AI can´t, well, it´s the issue is the AI, as usual. You don´t need to build more battleships to deal with any panzerschiff spam. You have all you need right from the start. With their mediocre speed and XP they are fodder for the Queen Elizabeths.

 

[Secret Master]

Do you? UK surface fleet has all it needs to destroy a handful of Panzerschiffs. If the AI can´t, well, it´s the issue is the AI, as usual. You don´t need to build more battleships to deal with any panzerschiff spam. You have all you need right from the start. With their mediocre speed and XP they are fodder for the Queen Elizabeths.

If the Axis are only raiding with submarines, Britain can just dock most of the capital ships at home and just spam cheap DDs or concentrate more naval strength in the Med.

If the Axis are raiding with surface raiders like BBs or panzerschiff, the capital ships have to be deployed around the globe to counter the threat. As we discovered in MP, the DDs can't be allowed to die off in significant numbers, or it screws the Allies in several ways. And as we found out, sometimes those capital ships will have to go on patrol (and burn fuel) and not just sit in port with strike force orders. Otherwise, the panzerschiff will get away and sink a bunch of DDs.

More so than before MtG, the naval war is in many ways a game of screen attrition.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

But if submarines are slightly nerfed like they are supposed to be, then big ships can be used as solo raiders to strip screens on convoy routes periodically, then tag in the submarines to sink more convoys.

im in a run after sub nerf, they still too OP against capitals, if my 10 GER sub encounter with a RN fleet with 10capitals + 40+DDs their sink at least 2 capitals and let others damaged badly...its seems that screening is useless against subs and had effect only against surface torpedoes. its lead to weird meta that the best counter to RN surface big capitals fleet is subs, lolz.

 

[Beagá]

Even with sonar and some double depth charge launchers in some DDs? This could use some testing.

 

[davidc929]

It doesn't speak volumes at all. In fact, it completely ignores the actually circumstances that caused this situation. Basically everyone else was bound by Naval Treaties that clearly specified ship-types. And with Germany being bound to build ships only up to 10.000 tons, they tried to find a way to exploit the limitations the other nations faced. No other nation build anything like this because no nation had restrictions like Germany, but at the same time Germany didn't have any of their restrictions, which prevented all the others from building these kind of ships.

By the time the war came around quite a bit of time had passed, and the Naval Treaties started to collapse, allowing for more modern designs to fill the gap that existed. But that doesn't somehow mean that others thought that this approach was useless, it only means that when there was a time to build these kind of ships no one was really in a position to do so due to restriction that were in place.

It does mean others felt the approach was wrong as they would have started pumping out equivalent ships when the treaty expired. As they did not it is fair to say they did not think they were ships worth building.

 

[Secret Master]

im in a run after sub nerf, they still too OP against capitals, if my 10 GER sub encounter with a RN fleet with 10capitals + 40+DDs their sink at least 2 capitals and let others damaged badly...its seems that screening is useless against subs and had effect only against surface torpedoes. its lead to weird meta that the best counter to RN surface big capitals fleet is subs, lolz.

If I wasn't playing 17 other games of HOI4, I'd be testing the nerf to subs right now.

But it's on my todo list.

 

[Klausewitz]

It does mean others felt the approach was wrong as they would have started pumping out equivalent ships when the treaty expired. As they did not it is fair to say they did not think they were ships worth building.

Which is not the same as a "technological deadend".

 

[kaguravitro]

I agree than hp is so low, but a mere compensation will not be enough.
Normally with uk un alignment, get a surface raiding fleet of several groups of a cl and 2 or 3 dd. To get a good raiding you need to be in a good spotting zone with naval supremacy.
Lone surface raiders don't work with naval system, the fleet seize compensation can't evade this kind of schools of been sink by patrol group maybe no at first but you don't need many catches to sink him. And they are inaccurate for fleet combat

 

[davidc929]

Which is not the same as a "technological deadend".

It is exactly what it means. If it was the technological approach to take then the Americans would of been pumping them out following Pearl Harbor. But the way to go was aircraft carriers. The Germans only built them as they were the only technical solution to maximise the artificial restrictions.

 

[Secret Master]

Which is not the same as a "technological deadend".

Well, isn't the idea of a surface raider in general (not just German's specific panzerschiff) a technological dead end with WWII technologies?

I know Britain put a lot of effort into sinking Bismark, the panzerschiff, and then bombed Norway a thousand times to get Tirpitz, but they could also afford to do that. And by the time 1942-1943 technology rolls around, you have plenty of planes and ship mounted RADAR you can use to spot surface raiders. One might argue that Bismark was bagged by a lucky hit, but if Tirpitz has sorted in 1943 against any kind of significantly protected British convoys, it's hard to see her doing any better than she did in March of 1942.

Plus the panzerschiff were early 1930s era ships anyway. You could argue that the Iowas represented kind of the end-state of what panzerschiff were trying to be (fast ships that hit hard), but it's a real stretch.

If you had 1944 technolgy (as HOI4 thinks of it) and no tonnage limits, would you even bother building a panzerschiff? Or would you just build a nice battlecruiser? And if you built the BC, wouldn't it just get detected by RADAR and bombed to death?

 

[Louella]

Well, isn't the idea of a surface raider in general (not just German's specific panzerschiff) a technological dead end with WWII technologies?

Well, commerce raiding by surface combatants can go two ways:

raider warships like Bismarck operating in small groups, that can achieve local superiority even against convoys escorted by capital ships. That was the plan - that the RN would have to spread their battleships across enough convoys, that Bismarck's task force could overpower them one at a time.

Or irregular raiders - converted merchantmen, that tie up disproportionate amounts of enemy forces to search for and apprehend them. These were very effective in both world wars. And a whole lot more efficient than building raider warships.

But they both rely on there being substantial amounts of enemy commercial shipping, and sufficient ocean area to operate in without being detected. There's very little point in building commerce raiders unless the enemy has a lot of merchant shipping travelling across oceans.