Panzerschiff too weak?

[Secret Master]

should it be like this?

No, it really shouldn't.

But I'm also of the opinion that, historically, the panzerschiff weren't the wisest investment Germany could have made. More and better submarines in 1939 would have made more of a difference.

That being said, they still shouldn't be a DD sinker.

 

[Beagá]

Why not? It´s has quite good guns to kill a destroyer. Not only the heavy batteries, but also the secondary guns. I´m not against making it win versus 3 destroyers. Taking some damage, but not much.

 

[Cavalry]

they both pierce each other and the old CA has twice as much HP

Panzerschiff has around 11 piering damage and 3 non-piercing damage against CA I

CA I has 14 piercing damage against Panzerschiff

Panzerschiff has around 100 HP

CA I has around 190 HP

This should be not even close

They are not designed to fight against British modern force, in game.
The range give them advantage to raid in deap ocean, where the old British CA and DD force (together the range of British fleet is less than 3000km or much less vs 7500km of the Panzerchiff) don't have range to reach, or too slow to come.
The big gun is supposed to help them better when they run into British BB.

 

[Secret Master]

Why not? It´s has quite good guns to kill a destroyer. Not only the heavy batteries, but also the secondary guns. I´m not against making it win versus 3 destroyers. Taking some damage, but not much.

I object to the fact that it's best use seems to be this, not that it should outgun DDs.

 

[Beagá]

Well if the HP is fixed it´s good enough for me (because it is... BAD and ludicrous hot-fix kind of thing, IMO), I´m way to used to different naval build orders so I won´t change it for me, but it will give more options to others.

 

[ow592]

and it would make a "free" 6k IC ship more viable

 

[Caeric]

To be fair, the Germans did plan a few improved Panzerschiff designs when no longer limited in tonnage such as the D and P-classes, of which the D-class was almost a sort of mini-battlecruiser (Or maybe a faster Sverige-class coastal battleship) version with vastly improved armor whilst the P-class kept more or less the same armor scheme but was 4 kts faster. Makes me a bit sad that there's so little use for them or potential for improvement. Same goes with the Coastal Defense Ships in being largely a dead end, and CAs not being that useful in general

 

[PanzerMan7]

Well, think about it. If the big ships force the escorts to lure them away, the subs have a clear shot at the convoy. The question is how were surface raiders and subs used together historically?

 

[ow592]

and it would make a "free" 6k IC ship more viable

oh, I forgot that there are 3 free Panzerschiffs in the game

PDox, please fix it

 

[Louella]

*is there a reason why doctrine in most navies was that raiders shouldn't go after escorts, but it's the optimal strategy in every computer strategy game I've played?

Possibly, yes. Ammunition might be a reason. Every shell fired at an escort is a shell not fired at the merchant ships carrying materiel to the enemy. Ammunition could not be easily replenished at sea. But in HOI4, ships do not need to be concerned about their ammunition usage.

 

[ow592]

did they solve it in last patch?

 

[marcelo r. r.]

a bit offtopic, but anyone noticed theres 2 deustchland class, 1 for battleships and other for CA?... these ambigous names get me confused.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

Graf Spee is a Panzerschiff like the previous 2 (Deutschland and Scheer). The Datas are the Same.

You have to upgrade them before the War with the new 28cm Guns, new 15cm-Sec-Guns, new 2cm AA, newer Torpedos ect. and the second Firecordinator (C.35). If possible give them the first Radar (Radar II-Research) too.

Then you send them to Convoy Routes in South-America and if possible to South-Africa / India.

Use your newer heavy Cruisers (Hipper, Blücher and Prinz Eugen) in the northern Atlantik Area to catch Convoys. They have the same Armement, but a better Hull, because they weren´t build in the Versailles-Arragement. This and the Sharnhorst-Battleships are your first heavys with good fighting-power and speed.

I try to upgrade the older ships first to get them Battle-Ready:

a) Panzerschiffe [Deutschland, Scheer, Graf Spee]: AA II, Heavy Guns II, Sec-Bat. II, Torpedos II, Firecordinator II; if possible Radar I and Armor II

b) Line Ships / Dreadnoughts [Schlesien, Schleswig-Hollstein]: AA II, Heavy Guns II, Sec-Bat. II, AA II, Plane-Launcher I, Firecordinator II and if possible Radar I as well as Battlecruiser-Armor I

c) light Cruiser Emden as well as the Königsberg-Classes / Leipzig-Classes: AA II, light Guns II, Plane-Launcher I, Firecordinator II, Armor II and if possible Radar I; no secondary batterys!

d) all light Torpedo-Boats 1923 / 1924: Engine II, AA II, Torpedos II, Water Bombs I and Sonar I; if possible Radar I

e) Minelayers and Minelayer-DD´s (DD 1934 as well as Brummer and Bremse): Mine-Laying for all Ships; on DD´s: AA II, Mine-Defense; on the Big ones: Armor I / better Armor II, AA II, Sec-Bat II, light Guns II, Firedirector II and if possible on all Ships Radar I

Yep the new Ammo-Variations are powerfull too, esp. for Contrys which have a smaller Fleet!!!!!

 

[ow592]

I am not sure if it is worth the IC to upgrade Panzerschiffs and old Line Ships

 

[Klausewitz]

Graf Spee is a Panzerschiff like the previous 2 (Deutschland and Scheer). The Datas are the Same.

You have to upgrade them before the War with the new 28cm Guns, new 15cm-Sec-Guns, new 2cm AA, newer Torpedos ect. and the second Firecordinator (C.35). If possible give them the first Radar (Radar II-Research) too.

Why?
Historically I would not need to (IIRC the Panzerschiffe only saw update of their fire direction and radar).
Also, what you dump into your upgrades could buy you a whole new fleet.
If you refit a ships armor and guns you might as well built a new ship.

a bit offtopic, but anyone noticed theres 2 deustchland class, 1 for battleships and other for CA?... these ambigous names get me confused.

That is historical though.
The Deutschland BB were from the Kaiserreich, the Deutschland CA were Weimar Republic designs.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

It isn´t worse. It´s necessary, because you can´t build enough bigships before and during WW 2.

And yes the 2 Lineships / Dreadnoughts were given to Germany through the Treaty of Versails. They were the 2 Bigships in German Navy until the 3 Panzerships came up. The 2 Lineships are historically called Deutschland-Class ´04 (because they get laid down in 1903).

The new Panzerships historically called Deutschland-Class ´31 (because they get build in the 1930´s). The new Deutschland-Class get called pocket Battleship from the Allies, because they were limited to a heavy Cruiser Tonnage but get the previous Scharnhorst-Calibers of 28 cm.

Germany, Italy and all others upgraded their ships, because they knowed that´s impossible to build newer ships in many Peaces to get the olders obsolet.

If you make it correctly, you can build up before WW 2:

4 Destroyers 1934 (with Minelaying)
12 Destroyers 1934 A (with Waterbombs for the light Cruiser-Groups a 4 each)
34 U-Boats Type VIII (1936 Hull with Type II Engine and Type II Torpedos)
10 U-Boats Type II C (Type II Engine und Type II Torpedos)
18 U-Boats Type II A / B with an Upgrade to Type II C later (Type II Engine and Torpedos)
2 Battleships Scharnhorst (later upgrading)
3 Heavy Cruisers (later Upgrading)

Upgrades before WW 2:

24 U-Boats Type II A / B to Type II C
12 Torpedoboats 1923 / 1924 (a 6 each) with Type II Enginge, Type II Torpedos, Type I Sonar, Waterbombs, Minesweeping

Upgrades during WW 2 from Sept. latest Okt. 1939 to 1940:
4 Destroyers 1934 (Minelaying-Group) with Type II Torpedos, Minesweeping, Type I Sonar and if possible Type I Radar
2 Minelayers (Minelayning-Group) with sec. Bat. II, Type II light Guns, Type I Gunsight, Armor I or II and if possible Type I Radar
3 light Cruisers Königsberg (Cruiser Group 1 and 2) with all Mains to Type II, Type I Gunsight and if possible Type I Radar
1 light Cruiser Emden (Crusier Group 1) with all Mains to Type II, Type I Gunsight, Type I Plane-Launcher and if possible Type I Radar
12 Destroyers 1934 A (Cruiser Group 1 and 2) with all Mains to Type II, Type I Sonar and if Possible Type I Radar

 

[ow592]

why should you upgrade the engines of a ship?

 

[Klausewitz]

Are you aware that upgrades cost you NIC (Naval Industry capacity)?
It is absolutely possible to get big ships done before the war.
Your Panzerschiff upgrade which costs about 5000 and makes them actually worse (they still cannot stand in the battle line and now they cannot even run). The Pre-Dreadnoughts even waste something like 8000 NIC.
5000 NIC is already half a Battleship. Not upgrading the Panzerschiffe and the Pre-Dreadnoughts give you more than two full Battleships in NIC.
At no bonus each shipyard does about 0,1 NIC per hour. You need 11125 for a Scharnhorst, 11750 for a Bismarck.
Using 5 dockyards and no boni (which is almost impossible as industry dispersion/concentration, trade policy and stability all provide boni) that means 22 250 hours are needed to produce a Scharnhorst, 23 500 hours for a Bismarck which comes out to a little over 2 and a half years for both ships (2.5685 for the Scharnhorst, 2.6826 for the Bismarck).
Not Upgrading the two Deutschland Klassen means you have the time and NIC to build over two battleships or 5 heavy cruisers, or 64 Type VII submarines.

 

[Klausewitz]

why should you upgrade the engines of a ship?

Speed allows both for evading enemy fire and escaping enemy ships.
But changing out the engine is also hideously expensive, requiring often more than half the original NIC input.
Changing Engine and armor guarantees that a new ship would be cheaper.

 

[ow592]

Speed allows both for evading enemy fire and escaping enemy ships.
But changing out the engine is also hideously expensive, requiring often more than half the original NIC input.
Changing Engine and armor guarantees that a new ship would be cheaper.

Thank you!
I know. I read most of the DevDiaries.

I just wanted to say: why are you doing that?