Panzer Leader

[agentyoda]

Hey, everyone! New to the forums here; treat me kindly

So I love World War II history, especially concerning the Germans and the Eastern Front; I came across a fantastic book recently called Panzer Leader, written by General Guderian of the Wehrmacht during his imprisonment by the Allies after the War. In fact, the Allies encouraged him to write it as part of a historical project by the German survivors (cf. prologue).

In any case, it's absolutely fantastic. Guderian, for those of you unaware, was the spearhead behind the development of the German Panzer Division; without him, it's possible the Panzer Division never would have existed in the form it did. He often met with Hitler and had a heavy hand in the development of the German mobile forces, which proved to be essential to the German war effort. His book outlines everything; it's a treasure trove for anyone interested in the German side of World War II. Besides a few errors (mainly regarding blame-shifting; it is autobiographical, after all), the actual military notes are a great insight.

Anyway, on to the main point of this topic.

Is anyone else excited to "re-enact" some World War II concept in your play-through? What kind? I'm most excited for this, obviously; World War II warfare in general fascinates me, especially when it comes to late-war Germany in Berlin and the Eastern Front.

 

[safe-keeper]

Welcome aboard, and thanks for the book recommendation!

As for the question, I'm not sure. Sending in the tanks to encircle a foe will be exciting, though, of course !

 

[Daddl]

Seeing the title I thought I know what you are asking, but you didn't. Anyway, I'll give you the answer on your not asked question, because you might be interested

Great tank leaders like Guderian, Manstein, Rommel etc. are currently just represented as generals. There are ace pilots in the game which might show up during fighting, giving certain bonusses. The Devs were interested about the suggestion to do the same for tank and U-boat commanders, so I'd be very happy to see that.

Otherwise my war concept as Germany will be the same as in HoI3 (these numbers are my wishes for Barbarossa, obviously you need quite a build-up for that): Have at least 100 infantry divisions to hold the front, around 20 tank divisions to punch through the enemy lines and create encirclements, and another 30 motorised divisions that follow the tanks and prevent the outbreak of the encircled enemies. Wait for the pocket to be closed, repeat at wish until you are in Moscow. Always worked like a charme.

 

[Denkt]

There is a trait called panzer leader.

In reality I don't think it was anything special as mobility have proven its worth times and times over in the history of warfare. Tanks was a relative new tool at the time but the combination of speed, firepower and armor was hardly anything new, armored cavalry have all 3 of those and they have existed for thousands of years.

Tank may have had better strategic mobility then cavalry but such advantage was hardly anything new either.

The German commanders was good commanders and they used common sense to get as far as they did, and Im sure many others could have gotten as far as they did. Im sure many other countries at the same time had just as capable commanders as the germans did.

 

[helgur]

In any case, it's absolutely fantastic.

I'm sure it is, but as with many other books the allies pushed the former Wehrmacht generals to write, it's value as a factual reference to history is not as valuable as people think or give it credit for. It's one side of the story. A lot of information coming from former OKW generals has been proven false (for instance that the reason the Germans lost on the eastern front was much in part of Hitlers incompetence as a military leader, when in fact the generals themselves made a lot of grave errors themselves).

 

[scroggin]

Hey, everyone! New to the forums here; treat me kindly

So I love World War II history, especially concerning the Germans and the Eastern Front; I came across a fantastic book recently called Panzer Leader, written by General Guderian of the Wehrmacht during his imprisonment by the Allies after the War. In fact, the Allies encouraged him to write it as part of a historical project by the German survivors (cf. prologue).

In any case, it's absolutely fantastic. Guderian, for those of you unaware, was the spearhead behind the development of the German Panzer Division; without him, it's possible the Panzer Division never would have existed in the form it did. He often met with Hitler and had a heavy hand in the development of the German mobile forces, which proved to be essential to the German war effort. His book outlines everything; it's a treasure trove for anyone interested in the German side of World War II. Besides a few errors (mainly regarding blame-shifting; it is autobiographical, after all), the actual military notes are a great insight.

Anyway, on to the main point of this topic.

Is anyone else excited to "re-enact" some World War II concept in your play-through? What kind? I'm most excited for this, obviously; World War II warfare in general fascinates me, especially when it comes to late-war Germany in Berlin and the Eastern Front.

Well if you liked that I would recomend his other book Achtung Panzer. It was written pre-war and sets out his theories on armoured warfare. The invasion of france was very much his theories put into practice.

Oh and welcome to the forum

 

[Wyrm]

Something that the Wehrmacht had going for them compared to other countries was that it was being built up from almost nothing and as such had very little in the way of old conservative guards in important positions that resisted the introductions of modern tools and tactics and they were rapidly expanding and as such had not a lot of budgetary constraints that enabled them to invest heavily in new weapon systems.

Other countries had proponents of armored warfare that tried out a lot of effective tactics, such as UK, but they were ignored at the top. Guderian himself had a lot of inspiration drawn from General Hobart.


I do have to read Panzer Leader though. It sounds really good.
I've read Panzer Commander by Hans von Luck and that book was great.

 

[shri]

Most of the ideas of Guderian and other German leaders were not from Hobart or any of the allied Generals- that was written post war to pacify and placate Allied Leadership.
The backbone of the Reichwehr was its first commander- Hans von Seeckt, the BEST staff officer of WW1. From 1920 to 1926, for 7 years he re-shaped German War time policy to his ideas.
As German army was restricted he trained the 96000 Infantry into NCO level, such that they were able to perform 2 levels above their actual rank.
He kept the best 4000/60000 officers and had them train in Russia using the "1922 Treaty of Rapallo". He sent his "WW1 Air Officers" to Russia and made them learn the new air techniques, similarly his "WW1 Tank Officers" went to Russia and learnt the ropes of the Tank in the vast Kazakh Plains.
He made the infantry practice anti-air and anti-tank by using wooden mock-ups as these weapons were banned.
The PzI, the MG34, the Door Knocker (PAK 37mm) and various other models were researched and designed under his supervision and then went on to be world beaters.
He formed over 2 dozen committees to look critically into all the aspects of the "Great War".

On the other hand, though his presentation was a classic Prussian Aristocratic Officer with trimmed mustache and excellent bearing and dressing, topped by a monocle, he wasn't a "cocooned individual", he was having extensive service doing cartography in the Ottoman Lands and in Africa in the late 19th century and spoke Fluent English, Good French and passable Turkish and some Russian. He applied a lot of scientific methods, stopped most of the old cruel Prussian corporal punishments in the army and totally changed the psyche.
The Sino-German treaties were also more or less his efforts.

To understand the performance of the Wehrmacht, Guderian is highlighted but the real brain behind it was - Hans von Seeckt who allowed such thoughts to grow and flourish in his army.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Roots-Blitzkrieg-Seeckt-Military/dp/0700606289 - - That is an interesting though somewhat pricey read.

 

[Duritz]

Too true shri. von Seeckt's influence can not be ignored.

For a counter point to the writings of Guderian, check out the works of James S Corum on interwar German rearmament.

The idea that one mid ranking officer, allegedly working against a whole system, could create such a total concept is just hubris in the extreme...

@Wyrm

von Luck's book is good but if you can get your hands on it, Lost Victories by Erich Manstein tops them all... just as that General topped his peers...

I've only found an abridged English version but I'm assured it's almost complete.

 

[Number 7]

i think i'm most excited about the pacific war for HOI4. Hearts of iron 3 is workable, playable, but theres so much they've improved on the air and naval side. Even the way they've reworked CAGS to be just planes coming out of your equipment pool to be placed on carriers in the exact composition with the exact models you want (A6M Zeros!) and the fact that naval battles now seem more dynamic and decisive is crazy interesting. I imagine it would be very brutal to have aircraft carriers go down and an ace pilot attached to their CAG be shot down in the same battle, very midway-esque!

i just love the way the new equipment system works in general. it really adds a level of immersion for me. Assigning tiger tanks to the divisions dug in around Berlin while the US and soviets are closing in and having them fight their hardest will be just epic

 

[shri]

@Duritz
The book i have quoted is the same person's, James Corum on the influence of Hans von Seeckt on the Wehrmacht.

 

[scroggin]

Most of the ideas of Guderian and other German leaders were not from Hobart or any of the allied Generals- that was written post war to pacify and placate Allied Leadership.
The backbone of the Reichwehr was its first commander- Hans von Seeckt, the BEST staff officer of WW1. From 1920 to 1926, for 7 years he re-shaped German War time policy to his ideas.
As German army was restricted he trained the 96000 Infantry into NCO level, such that they were able to perform 2 levels above their actual rank.
He kept the best 4000/60000 officers and had them train in Russia using the "1922 Treaty of Rapallo". He sent his "WW1 Air Officers" to Russia and made them learn the new air techniques, similarly his "WW1 Tank Officers" went to Russia and learnt the ropes of the Tank in the vast Kazakh Plains.
He made the infantry practice anti-air and anti-tank by using wooden mock-ups as these weapons were banned.
The PzI, the MG34, the Door Knocker (PAK 37mm) and various other models were researched and designed under his supervision and then went on to be world beaters.
He formed over 2 dozen committees to look critically into all the aspects of the "Great War".

On the other hand, though his presentation was a classic Prussian Aristocratic Officer with trimmed mustache and excellent bearing and dressing, topped by a monocle, he wasn't a "cocooned individual", he was having extensive service doing cartography in the Ottoman Lands and in Africa in the late 19th century and spoke Fluent English, Good French and passable Turkish and some Russian. He applied a lot of scientific methods, stopped most of the old cruel Prussian corporal punishments in the army and totally changed the psyche.
The Sino-German treaties were also more or less his efforts.

To understand the performance of the Wehrmacht, Guderian is highlighted but the real brain behind it was - Hans von Seeckt who allowed such thoughts to grow and flourish in his army.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Roots-Blitzkrieg-Seeckt-Military/dp/0700606289 - - That is an interesting though somewhat pricey read.

I wouldnt want to undermine the originality of Guderians ideas but we do know that he read widely and considered the ideas of others when forming his own. In the bibliography of Achtung panzer written in 1937 he mentions the writings of Charles DeGaul, JFC Fuller and Giffard Martel among many others. In his memoirs he gave a lot of credit to liddle-hart but that was put there at LH's request and wasnt in the german version.

I found what you said about Seeckt interesting the germans did a very good job of reforming and modernizing under his leadership.

If Guderian had the biggest influence on their ideas for armoured warfare. Rommel would have been the one who had the biggest influence on the infantry. Yes, he was an infantry specialist who trained officers and wrote their infantry training texts. Many officers thought Hitler was crazy putting Rommel in charge of a panzer division.

 

[Duritz]

@Duritz
The book i have quoted is the same person's, James Corum on the influence of Hans von Seeckt on the Wehrmacht.

Sorry shri

I didn't recognise the title and didn't have time to follow the link. Great minds...

 

[teeBee]

Most of the ideas of Guderian and other German leaders were not from Hobart or any of the allied Generals- that was written post war to pacify and placate Allied Leadership.
The backbone of the Reichwehr was its first commander- Hans von Seeckt, the BEST staff officer of WW1. From 1920 to 1926, for 7 years he re-shaped German War time policy to his ideas.
As German army was restricted he trained the 96000 Infantry into NCO level, such that they were able to perform 2 levels above their actual rank.
He kept the best 4000/60000 officers and had them train in Russia using the "1922 Treaty of Rapallo". He sent his "WW1 Air Officers" to Russia and made them learn the new air techniques, similarly his "WW1 Tank Officers" went to Russia and learnt the ropes of the Tank in the vast Kazakh Plains.
He made the infantry practice anti-air and anti-tank by using wooden mock-ups as these weapons were banned.
The PzI, the MG34, the Door Knocker (PAK 37mm) and various other models were researched and designed under his supervision and then went on to be world beaters.
He formed over 2 dozen committees to look critically into all the aspects of the "Great War".

On the other hand, though his presentation was a classic Prussian Aristocratic Officer with trimmed mustache and excellent bearing and dressing, topped by a monocle, he wasn't a "cocooned individual", he was having extensive service doing cartography in the Ottoman Lands and in Africa in the late 19th century and spoke Fluent English, Good French and passable Turkish and some Russian. He applied a lot of scientific methods, stopped most of the old cruel Prussian corporal punishments in the army and totally changed the psyche.
The Sino-German treaties were also more or less his efforts.

To understand the performance of the Wehrmacht, Guderian is highlighted but the real brain behind it was - Hans von Seeckt who allowed such thoughts to grow and flourish in his army.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Roots-Blitzkrieg-Seeckt-Military/dp/0700606289 - - That is an interesting though somewhat pricey read.

excellent. I totally agree. von Seeckt made it even possible to bring this 100.000 men versailles-army into officer status and therefore have the possibility to create this huge 3 mio men "Heer" to invade Russia.

 

[shri]

I wouldnt want to undermine the originality of Guderians ideas but we do know that he read widely and considered the ideas of others when forming his own. In the bibliography of Achtung panzer written in 1937 he mentions the writings of Charles DeGaul, JFC Fuller and Giffard Martel among many others. In his memoirs he gave a lot of credit to liddle-hart but that was put there at LH's request and wasnt in the german version.

I found what you said about Seeckt interesting the germans did a very good job of reforming and modernizing under his leadership.

If Guderian had the biggest influence on their ideas for armoured warfare. Rommel would have been the one who had the biggest influence on the infantry. Yes, he was an infantry specialist who trained officers and wrote their infantry training texts. Many officers thought Hitler was crazy putting Rommel in charge of a panzer division.

If you want to explore a bit more- explore the German generals in their WW1 formations.

For Eg: the BEST division all-round of the Great War was the crack "AlpenKorps" a re-inforced division with specialised mountain troops the veterans of which fought in WW2 also. Ironically, the AlpenKorps was formed due to the success of the French Chasseurs in the Alpine regions in the winter of 1914.
The Modern Gerbisjager of Germany still use their EdelWeib (Edelweiss) symbols.
4 future field-marshals of Germany fought under the Alpen Korps at Caporetto- Rommel, Schorner, Von Leeb and Von Paulus.
Von Leeb was a mid-level staff officer, Paulus as junior staff officer, Schorner and Rommel led Infantry battalions and Rommel ended up capturing a hundred+ Italians with less than 1 squad (10 men). No wonder, he did not like the Italians the second time around.

Th Prussian Guards of WW1 are also good to observe- Von Leeb was in the Bavarian Guard and then exported to the Alpenkorps, Von Bock was a mid-level Officer under Von Seeckt as was Von Rundstedt (both ended as Honorary Colonels though post war they receded to Majors, the brutal officer losses meant many officers operated 1/2 levels above even in the Imperial Army), Guderian fought as a young signals officer under Seeckt and Model too did a short term under Seeckt.
Manstein also was involved though not directly under Seeckt but indirectly via Rundstedt. Roughly 90% of the officers who became Field-Marshals, Gen Oberst and Lt. Generals in WW2 either fought directly or indirectly under Seeckt in WW1 and these were the men he retained for the post War Reichwehr.

Seeckt himself (mostly under Mackensen) was involved in almost all major German offensives- Gorlice-Tarnow, Serbia, Romania, post Brusilov stabilisation of the Austrians and the German Counter-offensives, the actions at Salonika in conjunction with the Bulgars, briefly in Mesopotamia around the time of Kut-al-Ahmra and finally on the Western Front in "Ludendorff Offensive".