Panzer divisions pleasure boats (one way trip)

[llib]

Hi guys,
the new expansion is wonderful with regards to new features.
However...
I again noticed that there were Norway troops sailing for French salient around Tripolis, eventually they sent all but two divisions out and this finally allowed Germany to successfully land in Norway. I need not to tell you that lot of those Norway troop transports were sunk.
But things don't end here. On Belgian surrender, Germany got Belgian congo. On French surrender, Vichy france got some areas around Mali, as well as Djibuti. So despite having no land connection to maintain supply, Germany has decided to move about 20 divisions to west Africa, and while it took me a while to notice this stupid scheme, I eventually did, and this(togehter with some other pleasure trips in mediterranean) has led to Germany losing all but one of it's (total of about six or seven) panzer divisions on sea(last one is stranded in Benghazi and it's likely only a matter of time when it commits suicide by drowning as well). The AI did switch some of sea zones to try and avoid certain areas, but it's still completely unable to assess that given Germany has practically no navy (except for two pre-dreadnoughts, it only has escorts and subs) it's incredibly unreasonable to try to garrison Africa and then for good measure ship troops back and forth further.
So I saw some complains about Germany not building any panzer divisions, and I'm actually wondering that it's not they didn't build any, but rather they let them all drown.

Is there something being worked on for the patch? Or is this supposed to be addressed in next expansion? Or at all?

 

[SeekTruthFromFx]

If you want it to be improved, I suggest that you file separate bug reports for the Norway and German cases, identifying them as AI bugs, including saves from before and during the bad behaviour.

But I understand from comments by programmers on the forum that fixing this kind of behaviour is very difficult (and therefore unlikely to be fixed soon, since there are a large number of simpler bugs in MTG). The devs have set flags discouraging Germany from sending troops to sub-Saharan Africa, but things like the Belgian Congo going German may never have happened in any of their test games.

 

[llib]

If you want it to be improved, I suggest that you file separate bug reports for the Norway and German cases, identifying them as AI bugs, including saves from before and during the bad behaviour.

I have proposed a way to fix:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-intelligence-assessing-naval-routes.1157241/
I think this should be possible, but I don't know enough about inner workings of HOI4 AI to know for sure. More robust fixes would be possible with more systematic improvements within the AI (it's "awareness" of what it's trying to do) but that's way out of my league..

But I understand from comments by programmers on the forum that fixing this kind of behaviour is very difficult (and therefore unlikely to be fixed soon, since there are a large number of simpler bugs in MTG). The devs have set flags discouraging Germany from sending troops to sub-Saharan Africa, but things like the Belgian Congo going German may never have happened in any of their test games.

I dunno, but I'd think this happens in every ("historical") game where Germany conquers Belgium.

By the way, I run the game a bit longer, and eventually Germany started escorting their ships... which given their strength is really not a thing they should do. But there is one other circumstance, Vichy navy... and this can be one factor that could make this behavior a bit less nonsense, as my raiding cruisers run into their fleet with 4 heavy hulls... though they were so slow that I shot up the convoy before they could interfere, then run away.

 

[SeekTruthFromFx]

I dunno, but I'd think this happens in every ("historical") game where Germany conquers Belgium.

It did not happen in any of my historical games in 1.4-1.5. In 1.6.x with MTG, then it shouldn't happen either; the Belgian Congo should belong to the Belgian government-in-exile. If you are playing 1.6.x without MTG, then this might be a genuine bug.

By the way, I run the game a bit longer, and eventually Germany started escorting their ships... which given their strength is really not a thing they should do. But there is one other circumstance, Vichy navy... and this can be one factor that could make this behavior a bit less nonsense, as my raiding cruisers run into their fleet with 4 heavy hulls... though they were so slow that I shot up the convoy before they could interfere, then run away.

Sounds like more good AI work by the devs. Vichy did not trigger in my game so I haven't seen this.

 

[ltccone]

It did not happen in any of my historical games in 1.4-1.5. In 1.6.x with MTG, then it shouldn't happen either; the Belgian Congo should belong to the Belgian government-in-exile. If you are playing 1.6.x without MTG, then this might be a genuine bug.

I'm playing a historical Germany game right now, and when Belgium surrendered, I got the Congo; this also happened to me occationally pre-MTG. I didn't even notice until I got a notification that convoys of mine were sunk. I then blocked access to the Gulf of Guinea; problem solved.

 

[llib]

It did not happen in any of my historical games in 1.4-1.5. In 1.6.x with MTG, then it shouldn't happen either; the Belgian Congo should belong to the Belgian government-in-exile. If you are playing 1.6.x without MTG, then this might be a genuine bug.

Hm, I can rerun and see what happens. But I'm not running without MTG, why would I do that? By the way have you checked about it, or going by memory? Because South Africa tends to take care for that problem.

Sounds like more good AI work by the devs. Vichy did not trigger in my game so I haven't seen this.

There is a difference between AI reacting based on scripts and if conditions(not a proper AI), and an AI that can (even though using same scripts) formulate a plan/purpose. Learning it's bad idea to send panzerarmee over uncontrolled waters by losing all your tank divisions (well only part of them was around west africa, rest was in mediterranean) adding to the failure further troops and even escort ships you can't afford to lose is not good AI. I'm really not sure whether Vichy fleet played any role in it or not, but it didn't work well enough. That said I can appreciate that building the AI takes certain requirements, and they placed some of them there hopefully.

 

[llib]

I'm playing a historical Germany game right now, and when Belgium surrendered, I got the Congo; this also happened to me occationally pre-MTG. I didn't even notice until I got a notification that convoys of mine were sunk. I then blocked access to the Gulf of Guinea; problem solved.

Yea actually, the part of the problem about Congo could be fixed by surrender event for Belgium.
This would still leave West Africa around Mali open to this problem.

 

[SeekTruthFromFx]

Hm, I can rerun and see what happens. But I'm not running without MTG, why would I do that?

Because you're poor and can't afford it.

By the way have you checked about it, or going by memory? Because South Africa tends to take care for that problem.

I'm going by memory, but I play at speeds 1-2, so I'm sure I would notice if Germany appeared in Africa.

There is a difference between ai reacting to scripted events, and an ai that can (even though using same scripts) formulate a plan/purpose. Learning it's bad idea to send panzerarmee over uncontrolled waters by losing all your tank divisions (well only part of them was around west africa, rest was in mediterranean) adding to the failure further troops and even escort ships you can't afford to lose is not good AI. I'm really not sure whether Vichy fleet played any role in it or not, but it didn't work well enough. That said I can appreciate that building the AI takes certain requirements, and they placed some of them there hopefully.

I was only referring to the quoted comment about Germany & Vichy France escorting convoys.

 

[llib]

Because you're poor and can't afford it.

I got the Field Marshall edition, so I sort of preordered it years ago, great bargain, now that MTG is out. So you are playing without MTG?

I'm going by memory, but I play at speeds 1-2, so I'm sure I would notice if Germany appeared in Africa.

I'm quite sure I needed to clean up Congo some years ago. But it's long time ago. If in doubt, run a hands off historical game.

I was only referring to the quoted comment about Germany & Vichy France escorting convoys.

I have happened to support some alies convoys in trouble with my escorts, and I have also helped some just by virtue of my fleet passing through. So to be honest I'm not all that sure how reliably this works, but certainly there is no active cooperation, at most one AI can be taking advantage(or trying to anyway) of another ally's presence, but it's not actual cooperation (you know, "escort my ships there please". And I'm not sure even about that, may have been just incidental engagement.

 

[llib]

So, an update, I have resumed the game from earlier save. This time around, what happened was that Belgian congo stayed Belgian, however upon capitulation of France/start of vichy, some French areas went to Vichy, others to Free French, and shortly after(day?) these areas went to germany as Free France capitulated. So that was quite bit odd.
I'm rethinking if what SeekTruthFromFx may have been right and the Belgian congo was just occupied by units that Germany smuggled there. I can't rule it out completely.