Palestine and israel in HOI 4
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I always thought middle east is poorly made in hoi but i can understand that since its a ww2 game and middle east didn't play big part in it, I think Egypt and Syria should be Puppet states under UK and France while Jordan and Palestine under direct control of the UK i don't think paradox will go into the hassle of Palestine or Israel and i think that's fine.
I asked a question without any politics. So, what is the problem?
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I do wait to see what will happen, once you paint the map half the fun is setting up the new world.
However with the end date it would be tricky to put in all the issues that the UK faced with pressure from the US to decolonise in such a short time.
I assume for both the Soviets and the Axis that puppet arab states would be set up, giving them the freedom they wanted as long as they traded directly with the overlord and made no treaties aimed against the overlord.
In fact it brings up the larger query on whether we should have different levels of autonomy for vassal/puppet states, from simple an administrative area (reichskommissariat), puppets (areas with local government & police, but no army) and bound allies (nominally indepedent, but any action against the boss is immediately a CB).
So I could see that a victorious German Empire, would basically have those area is wants as adiminstrative, then important secondary points as puppets and anything else as allies bound by threat of war. No point trying to send troops everywhere when you can concentrate them in a smaller area and use power projection to strike down anyone that gets to uppity.
For the Soviets it all belongs to Mother Russia I guess.
However with the end date it would be tricky to put in all the issues that the UK faced with pressure from the US to decolonise in such a short time.
I assume for both the Soviets and the Axis that puppet arab states would be set up, giving them the freedom they wanted as long as they traded directly with the overlord and made no treaties aimed against the overlord.
In fact it brings up the larger query on whether we should have different levels of autonomy for vassal/puppet states, from simple an administrative area (reichskommissariat), puppets (areas with local government & police, but no army) and bound allies (nominally indepedent, but any action against the boss is immediately a CB).
So I could see that a victorious German Empire, would basically have those area is wants as adiminstrative, then important secondary points as puppets and anything else as allies bound by threat of war. No point trying to send troops everywhere when you can concentrate them in a smaller area and use power projection to strike down anyone that gets to uppity.
For the Soviets it all belongs to Mother Russia I guess.
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That was funny, but it really shouldn't be an option. For historical reasons the Axis should only have options to liberate the Arab states from the French and British rule as puppets or to keep the Middle East under the direct German and/or Italian occupation.
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Fond memories to that Civ4 mod where they included Hitler as a leader and the devs had him favour Judaism as a joke
.It's a sandbox game, though, so I don't know if there should be too many barriers to what players shouldn't be allowed to do. The fact that you can apparently turn your country facist, democratic or communist seemingly at will says something about how "open" it's going to be.
I'm one of the people who're hoping for full freedom when creating nations. If I want to play as Germany and release three random states of Russia and call them the Random Republic of Untitled~2, I want to be allowed to do so (probably then having to deal with the widespread unrest and confusion among the local population and the parent country). Will lead to players doing weird things, but also to some very awesome AARs, I think.
I can perfectly well see the devs being reluctant to do so because of "forbidden topics", though
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I also am not so sure about that. Banned topic happened when negotiations and plans for banned topic in Madagascar fell through.
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I can't think if a historical reason that is not a can of worms for forum rules. I think the two should be both release able with their territory, but there really be nothing special about them. It is just a matter of "who has a cooler flag, name, and color" then. I mean, we could bypass this entire thing by having the region go to Egypt, but that is also a can of worms.
Ideally though, a player who is a great power should have some freedom on making puppets, like client states in eu4. I could release it as just the nation of Jerusalem or something then, and draw boarders that are beneficial to myself.
Ideally though, a player who is a great power should have some freedom on making puppets, like client states in eu4. I could release it as just the nation of Jerusalem or something then, and draw boarders that are beneficial to myself.
I'm not going into details, but I do believe that Nazi Israel wasn't an option. Nazis had allowed Jewish migration to Palestine before the war, but during the war they had other plans for the region and it's people. Book called Nazi Palestine by German historians Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers explains what those plans were. I'm not going to discuss about those plans in this thread, but if you are interested you should read that book.
It also includes plenty of interesting information about cooperation between the Germans and the Arabs during the war and ideological background of the cooperation. Personally I'm hoping (as I like to play as Axis) that it's possible to encourage Arabs to rise against the British and French in Middle East.
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It would be interesting to have some sort of event or revolt of both Jewish and Arab settlers in Palestine against British and French rule.
We can't forget that just as the Arabs fought the British in Egypt, Iraq, and Palestine, the Jewish settlers in Palestine after the Second World War also fought extensively against both Arab militia forces and British security forces. In fact, some historians argue that it was the ferocity and organization of the Jewish settlers in Palestine that convinced the British to leave Palestine in 1948 (the day the British evacuated Palestine, the State of Israel declared independence: this is pretty good evidence that the Jewish settlers and maybe even the British believed that the Jewish settlers had extensive military and political control of Palestine. The victory of Israel against a coalition of Arab states in 1948 further adds to this notion).
It would definitely be interesting to see how the Axis, Comintern, and Allied powers can influence events in not only the Middle East but African colonies everywhere. Germany aligned with Iraq; Israel would, eventually, align with the Allies, Egypt would turn to the Soviets, and much of Africa tried to work toward democracy but found good friends in Soviet Russia and Communist China.
We can't forget that just as the Arabs fought the British in Egypt, Iraq, and Palestine, the Jewish settlers in Palestine after the Second World War also fought extensively against both Arab militia forces and British security forces. In fact, some historians argue that it was the ferocity and organization of the Jewish settlers in Palestine that convinced the British to leave Palestine in 1948 (the day the British evacuated Palestine, the State of Israel declared independence: this is pretty good evidence that the Jewish settlers and maybe even the British believed that the Jewish settlers had extensive military and political control of Palestine. The victory of Israel against a coalition of Arab states in 1948 further adds to this notion).
It would definitely be interesting to see how the Axis, Comintern, and Allied powers can influence events in not only the Middle East but African colonies everywhere. Germany aligned with Iraq; Israel would, eventually, align with the Allies, Egypt would turn to the Soviets, and much of Africa tried to work toward democracy but found good friends in Soviet Russia and Communist China.
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I dont think that being able to release israel or palestine is very significant to a world war two game, so Im not going to be terribly dissapointed if its not there. But it was possible for britain to do that at any time. It should be there as an option for a player, that the AI wont normally choose. As for how much land would be released there should be a generic ability to decide what land to release with a puppet and there should be a generic ability to give land to your friends or allies.
If Germany wants to release the ukraine as a puppet but keep a corridor to the caucasus for itself that should be possible. Or if Germany wanted to hand lenigrad over to the finns that should be possible.
The good thing about HOI is that some things are very easy to mod. I had a hoi3 mod allowing you to play as israel from 1936 as if the balfor declaration had been implemented in a way that set up the nation of Israel after WWI.
If Germany wants to release the ukraine as a puppet but keep a corridor to the caucasus for itself that should be possible. Or if Germany wanted to hand lenigrad over to the finns that should be possible.
The good thing about HOI is that some things are very easy to mod. I had a hoi3 mod allowing you to play as israel from 1936 as if the balfor declaration had been implemented in a way that set up the nation of Israel after WWI.
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HOI4 should have a mechanism of breakup, because there is a reason why Baldwin, Chamberlain and France hesitated all to attack or dismantle Hitler before 1939 - a war that would conclude in someway or another in a dissolution of the colonialist empires they've built. The situation in 1945 was an exhaustion of the armed forces and very low maintenance of it in Africa and Asia, as the war demanded much of the forces to invade Hitler's Europe. It was point of no return, and colonial nationalists seized the moment and dismantled the once mighty empires.
These are the natural dangers of making/playing a game set so nearby to our own epoch. Passions are high because we can easily relate these events to something we see/saw a few decades ago. As long as people keep being civilized, it's a nice topic of discussion.
I wonder then if some sort of Caliphate state made up of all arab peoples under German/Italian control would be possible?
One it would provide a united strong nation to the parent and secondly the internal pressures would keep it from getting too strong.
One it would provide a united strong nation to the parent and secondly the internal pressures would keep it from getting too strong.
Under German, maybe. Italy's notions of a new Roman empire would run counter to that. They wanted a traditional empire in the model of the French or English empires, ruling arab, Muslim, and Berber populations. A caliphate would challenge their rule of these groups
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Why? One of the German options (prior to the one we aren't allowed to discuss) was setting up a Jewish state. Possible options were Madagascar, the Far East, and other parts of Africa.
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